Karen, thanks (I think) for the clarification. For some of us, I think it is a matter of what constitutes common sense and whether it is truly "common" sense, ie, shared by all. Our team has what I believe are some creative solutions, but I'm afraid some refs might consider those solutions to cause "deliberate" damage to some of the mission models. This is especially true for some of the more fragile models, such as the house, ice buoy, and snowmobile. There is a qualitative difference between purposeful damage and, shall we say, "indifferent" damage. The latter would be damage caused to a mission model when the team's solution does not take any care to preserve the integrity of the mission model. When the sole purpose is delivery to one place or another, keeping the mission model in one piece ceases to be of primary importance. In a real-life analogy, an Arctic research team should be able to repair a broken snowmobile, no?

Thanks again and we'll take our chances I guess. At the very least, we'll enjoy the "wow" factor.

Patton Adams
Team Rob Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: First Lego League Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karen Berger
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 4:23 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [VADCFLL-L] Loosing parts of researchers while delivery

FLL Coaches/Teams, 
It isn't guaranteed that mission models at any given tournament will be glued (it is up to the tournament to decide and most will not be glued). 
 
That being said, if the damage is accidentally or no fault of the team/robot, the team should be given the benefit of the doubt.  We all understand that parts of these models are fragile and do come apart easily.  As long as the robot/team are not doing something that is clearly and purposely damaging the field model as a part of your strategy, it should be given the benefit of the doubt.  
 
On the other extreme, if your delivery method for the people or snowmobile is to have your robot run them over and drag them to the destination (or something equally as obviously field damage) and the model gets damaged in the process, the referee will not give benefit of the doubt and there may be penalties (depending on the challenge and what the rules state). For it to be ruled intentional damage, it does have to be pretty obvious.
 
I hope this clears things up some.  I know a lot of people will still have questions regarding their team's strategy and most of them cannot be answered without actually seeing what the team does (if it accidental drops something vs. intentionally runs it over for example).  Please use common sense.  
 
Thanks, 
Karen
Head Referee (VA/DC State Tournament)
Tournament Director (Newport News Regional)
 

	-------- Original Message --------
	Subject: Re: [VADCFLL-L] Loosing parts of researchers while delivery
	From: Phil Smith III AKPHS.COM>
	Date: Wed, October 29, 2008 12:13 pm
	To: [log in to unmask]
	
	
	A fair question. I would expect mission models like these to be glued, for simplicity (it would be far too easy for parts to disappear accidentally if not); as ever, benefit of the doubt should go to the team. If a hat falls off just because the robot vibrates a little, I wouldn’t expect that to be taken as deliberate mission model damage. If a hat falls off because the robot is trying to cram the little dude through the window of the house, that *might* be viewed differently (but you wouldn’t be doing that, of course).
	 
	What I wouldn’t expect is for you to successfully argue that you should get points for the ice buoy if, say, the base falls off but the robot delivers the top in such a manner that, had the base still been attached, it would have been upright. That goes too far in expecting the refs to make woulda, coulda, shoulda assumptions.
	From: First Lego League Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Deepak Patil
	Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 10:54 AM
	To:[log in to unmask]
	Subject: [VADCFLL-L] Loosing parts of researchers while delivery

	 

	Hello,
	 
	While delivering researchers (lego mini-figs) to their destination, sometimes their parts fall off (skis/caps, etc.)
	If that happens during tournament are any points taken off?
	 
	Also similarly the snow-mobile looses it's parts, so if it's skis fall off but rest of the snoe-mobile is delviered is
	it considered scored?
	 
	Luckily the polar bear's head stays on it's shoulders :-)
	 
	any insight will be appreciated. 
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