Steve/Kevin,
	My guess would be that the perception of point loss in last
year's challenge comes from the oil barrels in base being worth 10
points each regardless of whether they were delivered anywhere.  I
believe you started with 4 or 5 barrels in base so if you did nothing at
all you would get points for those barrels.  So in essence the deduction
would have only been the 10 points for each barrel that they had already
"earned" just by being in base.
	I hope that's the explanation...otherwise I would agree that it
was done inaccurately.
	Joe Kaperick

-----Original Message-----
From: First Lego League Discussion
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stephen Scherr
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 11:19 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [VADCFLL-L] active touch rule

I hope there was a misperception about what happened last year;  
otherwise your team is owed an apology (and other teams, too).
During my five years as a referee, the rules have been the same--a  
penalty object removed from the field is a "lost opportunity".   The  
score is determined by adding up the points for missions based on the  
condition of the field at the end of the match.  Scott Evans, the  
robot game designer, is very clear on this rule.  The penalty is only  
that they can't score for the team.

Steve

On Nov 13, 2008, at 11:02 PM, Kevin and Stephanie Burke wrote:

> Last year, our team lost points for each piece "penalty" item, even  
> if they had not been in scoring position to start with.  If they  
> lose levees that are taken from base, is that just "lost  
> opportunity" ( no deductions) or is it  - 5 points off of the final  
> score - essentialy a net loss of 10 points if the levee piece was in  
> scoring position and a loss of 5 points if not in scoring position.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Scherr" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [VADCFLL-L] active touch rule
>
>
>> A couple of wording changes here:
>>
>> As has been noted earlier, if the robot is *IN* base, rather than  
>> *TOUCHING* base, there is no
>> touch penalty.  For example all the wheels might be Touching the  
>> mat outside of base, but some
>> corner of the robot might still lie *over* Base, so the robot is  
>> still In base--no penalty
>>
>> Officially, it is not a 4 or 5 point deduction, rather those points  
>> are not added in when the scores
>> are totaled at the end of the match.  Essentially the same  
>> difference.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:24:53 -0500, Burke, Stephanie
<[log in to unmask] 
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> My understanding is that if they touch the robot after starting the
>>> mission (hitting "go") they have to restart the mission.  If the  
>>> robot
>>> is still touching base, no touch penalty.  If the robot has cleared
>>> base, then they incur a touch penalty.
>>>
>>> One question I have - If the team incurs a touch penalty and the ref
>>> takes away a levee block, does that mean that they subtract 5 points
>>> from the final score for each levee block the ref is holding at  
>>> the end?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: First Lego League Discussion
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Levy
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 11:31 AM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: [VADCFLL-L] active touch rule
>>>
>>> Thanks to all for the answers..
>>>
>>> A couple of follow up questions if you don't mind:
>>>
>>> a)  In number 2 and 3 below although there is no penalty, would the
>>> testing the levees challenge point still be awarded?
>>>
>>> b) Based on the answers given it sounds like it is allowable ( no
>>> penalty given) for the kids to grab the robot after it starts  
>>> moving but
>>>
>>> before it is completely out of base.  For example, if the kids see  
>>> that
>>> the robot was not running straight, then they can pick it up and try
>>> again.   true?
>>>
>>> thanks again
>>> David
>>>
>>>> *From:* First Lego League Discussion
>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Mark FLL  
>>>> Allen
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:27 AM
>>>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [VADCFLL-L] active touch rule
>>>>
>>>> See the answers as I understand the rules below.
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Mark
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: David Levy <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Sent: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 9:53 am
>>>> Subject: Re: [VADCFLL-L] active touch rule
>>>>
>>>> Maybe some example scenarios would be appropriate -
>>>>
>>>> In the "testing the levees challenge" , robot has moved only  
>>>> partially
>>>
>>>> out of base - robot is touched when:
>>>>
>>>> 1) still not yet reached the challenge model (penalty ?)  - No
>>> penalty.
>>>> 2) challenge model has been activated , and other end of robot is
>>>> sitting on the challenge model's activation bar ( penalty ?) No
>>> Penalty
>>>> 3) challenge model has been activated, robot has moved off  
>>>> challenge
>>>> model's activation bar and 'heading' back ( legal ?) No penalty
>>>>
>>>> In other missions where the robot has completely left base  
>>>> performed a
>>>
>>>> mission and is returning to base - robot is touched when:
>>>> 4) robot is completely in base but still rolling ( legal )  Yes -
>>> legal
>>>> 5) robot is partially in base but still rolling ( legal ) Yes -  
>>>> legal
>>>> 6) robot is partially in base but it is bringing back a scoring  
>>>> object
>>>
>>>> that is on a section of the robot that has not crossed over the  
>>>> home
>>>> base line. (penalty?)  No penalty but the "retrievable" is removed
>>>> from the table by the ref and is out of play.
>>>>
>>>> thanks
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>> Darlene Pantaleo wrote:
>>>> > Normally you can touch the robot while in base, but if you do it
>>>> while > it is performing a mission, then the mission will not  
>>>> count.
>>>> The new > rules allow for performing a mission without leaving the
>>>> base. Sorry > for the confusion.
>>>> > Darlene Pantaleo
>>>> > Judge Advisor
>>>> > Maggie Walker
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Nov 13, 2008, at 2:52 AM, Michael Blanpied wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Dear Darlene,
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> The effect of the new rules is on what the robot can do while  
>>>> in
>>>> >>> base. It does not effect a team's touching the robot except  
>>>> that a
>>>
>>>> >>> mission will not count if done from base (such as the "test the
>>>> >>> levees" challenge).
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I'm afraid I don't understand what that last phrase means. Under
>>>> what >> circumstance would a mission not count? Thanks for  
>>>> clarifying.
>>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> -- >> Cheers,
>>>> >> Mike Blanpied
>>>> >> Reston, VA
>>>> >> 2006 Nano People #4809
>>>> >> 2007 Power Bunnies #1666
>>>> >> 2008 BLT - Brilliant Lego Team #5013
>>>> >
>>>> > ______________________________________________________________ >
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