Chris and Alison, thanks for these clarifications and further thoughts.  I do think it is helpful to think through the differences, similarities, ways in which axes of oppression cross and use one another, etc..  Without such comparisons I would not have been able to have made the analysis I sent--that a purportedly feminist point has an effect that furthers racism (and so undermines feminism).  So I think what I have stated (or the fact of my stating it) is consonant with your remarks, Chris.  My main criticism is that the effect of this particular comparison is deleterious insofar as it obscures racism for the sake of foregrounding sexism thereby highlighting the concerns of white women while splitting all other women (at least) in two.

--- On Tue, 6/10/08, Alison Jaggar <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> From: Alison Jaggar <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: NYTimes.com: Judith Warner: Woman in Charge, Women Who Charge
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2008, 6:00 AM
> Obama himself has been fascinated by the complex
> relationships between
> gender, race, class, and nation. I have just read his
> DREAMS FROM MY FATHER,
> which I take to be a meditation on the anguish of
> constructing a livable
> black masculinity by a dark-skinned young man who was
> raised by a devoted
> white mother and grandparents in the shadow of an absent
> and at least
> unofficially polygamous African father who gave him the
> Islamic name of
> Hussein. As a community organizer in Chicago, Obama
> reflects on the
> multitude of ways in which black men try to build
> identities that enable
> self-respect and dignity while promoting social change.
> He's also very much
> aware of the distinctively gendered burdens borne by poor
> women both in
> Chicago and in Kenya.
> 
> Alison
> 
> On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Chris Cuomo
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> > I respectfully disagree Hilde. I don't think they
> are odious, unless they
> > are meant to imply that sexism is "worse"
> than racism, or that Americans (or
> > whoever) are more enlightened concerning race than
> they are about gender.
> > Comparisons do not necessarily imply a hierarchy of
> oppressions. Personally
> > I find the comparisons useful in understanding the
> distinct workings of
> > various forms of oppression, and I believe it's
> important and beneficial to
> > track the ways that racisms, gender oppressions, and
> other forms of
> > xenophobia are distinct and not necessarily parallel
> or even similar. How
> > can feminists of any race or ethnicity and
> anti-racists of any gender not be
> > fascinated by the different treatments of (masculine)
> race and
> > (white-privileged) gender by the U.S. media monster,
> in relation to the
> > Obama/Clinton showdown? If analyses of such
> differences are oversimplified
> > or they become a way of downplaying the significance
> of one form of harm
> > rather than another, that's a problem (perhaps
> this is the criticism of
> > Warner?). But it seems to me that  to refuse to
> compare would be to miss a
> > very rich philosophical/political opportunity. And I
> don't know many
> > thoughtful people who are not comparing, and drawing
> important lessons for
> > future progressive politics, if there is such a future
> in this country.
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > On Jun 8, 2008, at 8:19 PM, Hilde Lindemann wrote:
> >
> > Thanks, Gaile Jr., for saying what I wanted to say
> myself. These
> > comparisons are odious and they hurt people.
> > Best,
> > Hilde
> >
> > At 02:47 PM 6/8/2008, you wrote:
> >
> > Yes, indeed.
> >
> > I wonder what people think about the chances of
> Obama's success, given the
> > hard and deep reality of racism in the US.  Is this
> country really ready to
> > elect a black president?
> >
> > Joan
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >  *From:* Feminist ethics and social theory
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]>]
> > *On Behalf Of *Janine Jones JCJONES2
> > *Sent:* Sunday, June 08, 2008 2:34 PM
> > *To:* [log in to unmask]
> > *Subject:* Re: FW: NYTimes.com: Judith Warner: Woman
> in Charge, Women Who
> > Charge
> >
> > And piggy-backing on what you say here, Gail (thanks
> for your comments), a
> > lot of racist comments directed at Obama and his
> voters/supporters were not
> > conceivable as such, for the reasons you give.  Front
> certain viewpoints it
> > was absolutely clear that Obama dealt with a great
> deal of unnamed, dare I
> > say unnameable racism.  In postings a couple of weeks
> ago Sarah Hoagland
> > made reference to the construction of ignorance. (She
> was referencing
> > Charles Mills, who is concerned with certain forms of
> cognitive
> > dissonance.)  I think that leaving things unnamed,
> making them unnameable --
> > e.g. certain forms of racism -- is one of the key ways
> in which ignorance is
> > constructed.   As you say, racism and sexism operate
> in different ways.
> > Going hand-in-hand with Mills project one might ask
> both why certain forms
> > of racism are unnamed, they have become unnameable,
> and what are the effects
> > of the kind of ignorance thereby constructed.
> > -----Feminist ethics and social theory
> <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote: -----
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > From: Gaile Pohlhaus <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent by: Feminist ethics and social theory
> <[log in to unmask]>
> > Date: 06/08/2008 01:46PM
> > Subject: Re: FW: NYTimes.com: Judith Warner: Woman in
> Charge, Women Who
> > Charge
> >
> > I think it is very important that we recognize the
> amount of misogyny that
> > has transpired over H. Clinton's bid for the
> nomination and I also think
> > juxtaposing that misogyny to the popularity of Sex in
> the City is brilliant
> > (a show that my students continue to tell me is
> "really diverse"­because
> > each of the 4 women have really different attitudes
> about sex...  there are
> > so many different ways white women can relate
> themselves to men!  Imagine
> > that?).  Still, I am not sure how helpful it is to say
> "if similarly hateful
> > racial remarks had been made about Obama, our nation
> would have turned
> > itself inside out in a paroxysm of soul-searching and
> shame.   Had
> > mainstream commentators in 2000 speculated, say, that
> Joe Lieberman had a
> > nose for dough, or made funny Shylock references,
> heads would have rolled."
> > Racism and anti-Semitism don't operate in the
> exact same ways that sexism
> > and misogyny do, so why would we expect such easy
> comparisons?  While I
> > imagine
> >  the statement is intended to emphasize how far we
> have *not* come with
> > regard to sexism and misogyny, it can (and I think
> does) have the effect of
> > making it seem like we *have* come a long way with
> regard to racism and
> > anti-semitism/Christo-normativity. And the ironic
> thing (to my mind) is that
> > one of the reasons (I believe) that we don't hear
> blatant racist jokes out
> > in the open in the media is precisely because white
> America wants so much to
> > pretend that race & racism do not exist anymore
> (one of the ways racism
> > operates: problem? what problem?) ­so it would seem
> that many would be very
> > quick to read the statement in the "wow racism
> just doesn't exist anymore,
> > does it?" way. Consequently, the _effect_ of the
> statement is to make a
> > (purportedly) feminist point off the backs of people
> of color and
> > nonChristians, isn't it?
> >
> > There's been plenty of racism abounding in this
> primary and the Obamas
> > lives have been plenty disrupted by it--they can't
> even join a new religious
> > community until the campaign is over for fear that
> reporters will
> > continually disrupt that community hoping to get sound
> bites that will scare
> > white America.  The fact that that racism comes in
> ways that are different
> > from the ways in which sexism comes should be no
> surprise to this list.
> > Easy comparisons at the expense of nonChristian women
> and women of color
> > only undermine feminist work.
> >
> > In Solidarity,
> >
> > GP, jr.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  Hilde Lindemann
> > Professor of Philosophy
> > 503 South Kedzie Hall
> > Michigan State University
> > East Lansing, MI 48824
> > 517-353-3981
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Alison M. Jaggar
> Professor of Philosophy and Women and Gender Studies
> Philosophy Graduate Director and Associate Chair
> Department of Philosophy, UCB 232,
> University of Colorado at Boulder
> Boulder, CO 80309-0232
> 303-492-8997 (direct line)
> 303-492-6132 (dept. office)
> 303-492-8386 (fax)