Jamie:

Good questions (so here are some others) . . . !!

As per Gregg's ToK, "Culture" is a "dimension of complexity" that  
relies on "Psychology" (much as that dimension relies on "Life"), so  
what are the features of human psychology at work with *memes* . . . ??

Or to put this in Aristotelian "formal causality" terms, what is the  
"form" of a *meme* (i.e. what is its "internal structure") and what  
form/structure does it generate in Cultures.  Having read dozens of  
accounts of this and spoken with many proponents of the "theory," all  
I have ever gotten is hand-waves and blank-stares.  I have yet to meet  
a single "memester" with a clue about what they are talking about.   
Every attempt at detailed inquiry quickly breaks down.

I'm quite familiar with the origin proposal for *memes* as the  
"analog" for genes (which I know a bit about as a PhD candidate in  
Molecular Biology) but that explanation doesn't help much.   
Furthermore, as John has detailed for us, the "gene" is, in fact, not  
the "unit of evolution" that Dawkins (a biologist who should have  
known better) thought it was.  He didn't even get his "Life" right --  
so why would he have any clarity on "Culture"?

A better "cultural" explanation was given by Kenneth Boulding in his  
1956 "The Image" (derived from sociologist Fred Polak's 1953 "Image of  
the Future") but, as an economist, Boulding also failed to provide the  
psychological underpinning for his notions.  By skipping psychology  
and operating at the "dimension" above, he was arguably just as unable  
to understand what is going on as was Dawkins.

None of these people have a clear grasp of how "Culture" operates.   
Why would "Culture" function in this way at all?  Why would there be a  
"language" process which allows this to happen?  How can *memes* be  
explained in terms of Gregg's TOK?

 From my standpoint (and perhaps Gregg's), there is another  
"dimension" based on technology that has taken over -- defining the  
"Culture" and "Psychology" dimensions.  This approach is *not*  
comprehended by Dawkins (or Boulding.)  Dawkins has over-stretched his  
understanding of "Life" and there is no reason to listen to anything  
he says about "Culture," since he has no comprehension of "Technology"  
(or the "fifth joint point.")

Ultimately, which technology generates *memes* and, since they clearly  
function "pre-consciously" in terms of our psychology (i.e. are  
uniformly nonsense when examined consciously, just like the  
advertisements they emulate), what are the psychological processes  
involved . . . ??

Mark

Quoting Mathew Jamie Dunbaugh <[log in to unmask]>:

> Hi All,
>
> I just read Mark's blog on the end of memes and I'm totally confused. I'm
> sure Mark is on to something, but I don't get it.
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__medium.com_rally-2Dpoint-2Dperspectives_the-2Dend-2Dof-2Dmemes-2Dor-2Dmcluhan-2D101-2D2095ae3cad02&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=domXX4cM9l8YQ9aGFqwWjJNXGU8us9coRUzxtOd7JOY&s=NMZGF-3oAvZyz3tYfNF09qYh6IdXRAA1IFNi41pjVsE&e=
>
> Memes are reproducing units of culture, so they include anything learned
> from parent to child, or from peer to peer. They don't necessarily have to
> be in the media. A tribe in Africa with no contact with television or the
> web still has memes because it still has culture. There is no piece of
> culture that is not a meme because memes are the stuff of culture! The
> human psyche, even the personality, is largely memetic in that it's
> composed of cultural software that's not found in the genome.
>
> So what are the memes Mark is talking about? They seem to be a certain kind
> of meme that only exists on the media. And Mark claims they're dying out,
> or dead already because.... these memes aren't effective when there is more
> memory around??
>
> *"It is this ability to remember (which computer do to us when we
> habitually use them), as opposed to the ability to suspend belief over the
> make-believe of television and similar types of media that marks the end of
> the effectiveness of memes under digital conditions. " *
>
> I get that some kind of meme had to die out with television, but I'm having
> a hard time pinning down exactly what that is. The ability for more
> cultural memory to be stored around the web has allowed memes to flourish.
> Mark can't be talking about the famed "internet meme" because that would
> make no sense.
>
> Every post on Facebook is a meme, (the entire internet is a memeplex made
> of memes!) ... but I just went on facebook for about 30 seconds to find a
> quintessential internet meme and here is the first one I found:
> [image: image.png]
>
> You can even see on the bottom right that the place it came from is called
> *meme*generator.net
>
> The enhanced external memory all around us has allowed for the
> hyper-evolution of memes. Memes are both reproducing AND being processed
> (evolving) by larger and larger populations as more people pay attention to
> the same things. The "cognitive surplus" (Clay Shirky) is allowing more
> attention to go into processing more memes on the media.
>
> So what is Mark talking about here?:
>
> *"Memes were very much a part of the television “revolution” that McLuhan
> wrote about — perfect for television advertising. Memes are “democratic”
> and psychographically weaponized: Unlike one-size-fits-all propaganda, you
> get to choose between Coke or Pepsi. Memes are meaningless and you can’t
> argue with them. Just like television. Just do it! (Don’t think about
> it.) "*
>
> *“We shape our tools and, thereafter, they shape us.” McLuhan himself often
> summarized this understanding in terms of a
> Gestalt: figure and ground. Without this basic concept, McLuhan cannot be
> grasped. This is McLuhan 101. *
>
> *"In modern terms, formal cause is roughly analogous to “structure” or
> “environment” or “paradigm.” In psychological terms, formal cause means
> those technological influences that condition the early-stages of learning,
> which substantially define the “wiring” of our initially plastic brains."*
>
> *"Digital technology is all about remembering. Thus, digital technology
> sounded the death knell for make-believe memes "*
>
> Why? *Why is remembering a problem for memes?*
>
> *"With our new digital environment, this process of remembering has now
> become the ground of our daily experiences."*
>
> I can't find a straightforward explanation in the article or anywhere on
> the web, of 1) what is the meme Mark's talking about, and 2) why this meme
> is dead or dying. I'm sure Mark is saying something significant because I
> can tell there is a real difference between the television era and the
> internet era and the way the media "programs" society in each era.
>
> -Jamie
>
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