Tim:

The approach I take is (and I had thought) the *same* one taken by  
Gregg -- which is to say the one put forward by Merlin Donald. He is  
an evolutionary neuro-psychologist who is working with my Center.

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Merlin-5FDonald&d=DwIBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jtGEWYngeGkLHbpF05r9EOzFOXrDYqAZf6kwj_zoHrc&s=rb0Iuiu_vOCGc7Bu3aATEPwe70hZGrXfXmx27c-a6b4&e=

His 1992 "Origins of the Modern Mind" -- which sharply distinguishes  
"mimetic" from "mythic" cultures -- is a further elaboration of the  
1976 Julian Jaynes "Origins of Consciousness."  I was also Jaynes'  
"last student."

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Origins-2DModern-2DMind-2DEvolution-2DCognition_dp_0674644840&d=DwIBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jtGEWYngeGkLHbpF05r9EOzFOXrDYqAZf6kwj_zoHrc&s=9ReDL2pIk9yhs1Xyp2AA5RSDruPmvgwox8sh9YqihjA&e=

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Origin-2DConsciousness-2DBreakdown-2DBicameral-2DMind_dp_0618057072&d=DwIBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jtGEWYngeGkLHbpF05r9EOzFOXrDYqAZf6kwj_zoHrc&s=Hauk9nsswBw-L3LLMnciM-smw6qtvEarRKDrKFAl5zM&e=

No I wasn't at Gregg's conference and if someone else has a different  
view on this topic, which I've been studying for many years, I'd be  
happy to take a look if you can provide a reference . . . !!

Mark

Quoting Tim Henriques <[log in to unmask]>:

> Hi Mark - I wanted to get clarification on the post you mentioned below
>
> Homo Sapiens did *not* have anything like human language as a direct
> result of its own biological evolution.  From 200,000+ years ago until
> some time much more recently -- perhaps only 10,000+ years ago --
> humans most likely didn't have spoken language and written language is
> only 2500 or-so years old.
> Just to make sure I am reading that correctly, is the claim you are  
> making that we didn't have spoken language 200k years ago or more?
>
>
> Did you happen to attend the ToK conference that Gregg held earlier  
> this year?  There was interesting presentation on Hunter Gatherer  
> society as one of the main topics of a lecture, and in that  
> presentation the presenter (Steve Keefer I believe) made that case  
> that humans had reasonable working language at 600k years ago if my  
> memory serves correctly.  I am not an expert on this topic myself  
> and so I can only relate the information presented.  I imagine one  
> of the points of contention is "what constitutes language".  It was  
> a subject I was interested in so I specifically asked about him  
> about this and his basic point was that the hunter gather community  
> could communicate quite well with each other and broader tribes.   
> From a justification point of view they could ask each other "why  
> did you do that" and then expect an answer.  I asked him if that was  
> more of his 'pet theory' or if there was reasonable consensus on  
> that and he seemed to indicate the latter.
>
>
> Does that information jive with your account of history or do you  
> take a different approach?
>
>
> Tim Henriques
> Director, NPTI VA/MD/DC
> 703-531-0795
> NPTI's Webpage
>
>                 Did you know I wrote a book about Powerlifting?
>
>
> Refer a friend to NPTI and receive a FREE CEU Class of your choice  
> (including TRX and KB) if they sign up
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Stahlman <[log in to unmask]>
> To: TOK-SOCIETY-L <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tue, Sep 25, 2018 5:48 pm
> Subject: Re: Stam's critique
>
> Gregg:
>
> As we've discussed, there is no simple "identity" between language  
> and humans.
>
> Homo Sapiens did *not* have anything like human language as a direct
> result of its own biological evolution.  From 200,000+ years ago until
> some time much more recently -- perhaps only 10,000+ years ago --
> humans most likely didn't have spoken language and written language is
> only 2500 or-so years old.
>
> Yes -- Merlin Donald is probably the best source on all this . . . !!
>
> Mark

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