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August 2018

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From:
"Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx" <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Thu, 30 Aug 2018 12:43:54 +0000
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Consistent with Mark's point here, I will reiterate that I consider the ToK/UTUA frame a top down and bottom up approach.

The ToK is top down. That is, it says, hey, our global knowledge systems are all chaotic. We failed at developing a workable synthetic philosophy, demonstrated by the rise of postmodernist thinking. And, if taken to its logical conclusion, post modernism is a disaster. There are foundational truths. And it is the case that knowledge is the product of a bunch of humans justifying things to themselves and each other, and is deeply influenced by local influence and investment. Prior to the ToK, no one could solve the modern/post modern split. The fields of psychology, and the rest of the social sciences were strong evidence of this failure. And the ToK, developed on the heels of the JH, says: Boom..here is the solution. Let's now start the project of a globalized knowledge system that fosters an integrated pluralism, in contrast to a fragmented pluralism. 

But that is way too abstract and analytic and distant to address what the hell an average person should be thinking about. This is where the Garden comes in. 

The Garden is playful and cartoonish, it is interactive and platform friendly, it speaks to issues of wellness and how people can be in their own local world. If you are interested in gaming, it is a game. If you are interested in art it is art. The ultimate message is that life is about your personhood and the situation you find yourself. And it is about tending your own Garden. It offers guidance in terms of processes and principles. Be curious, accepting, loving compassionate and motivated toward valued states of being. It says well-being is happiness with the worthiness to be happy. It says that you adapt to the situation you find yourself across five systems (habit, experiential, relational, defense, and justification). It says everyone needs to reflect on the situation they find themselves and do what they can to foster adaptive living, defined in terms of realistically achieving valued states of being. In short, it is the principles and processes for dealing with psychological struggles and finding harmony. Keep in mind, the whole system ultimately has it roots in how to help folks dealing with psychological misery. 

Whereas the ToK is Global, the Garden is local. 

It is worth noting here again that the Garden was born in my friend Craig Shealy's Summit Series conference on Cultivating the Globally Sustainable Self. The key is to realize there are multiple levels of analyses here. People need to be given the freedom and the space to cultivate their own Gardens as we work to integrate knowledge so that we can coordinate global forces at the aggregate level to enable the local flourishing,

G



-----Original Message-----
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Mark Stahlman
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 8:17 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: East vs. West: The Global System??

Chance:

Thanks for this moving testimony . . . !!

Yes -- we're at the beginning of what is likely to be some very rough times.  Paradigm shifts of this magnitude -- from Fantasy to Memory in our lifetimes -- are going to be difficult for everyone involved.  No one will be spared.

Jeff and I predicted Trump's election before a single primary vote was cast.  On election-eve, we threw a party that ended around 9:30PM when it became clear that we were correct.  This was not what either of us wanted to happen but, given the Cultural forces at work, practically inevitable.

My further prediction was that "chaos" would envelop our lives and that anyone's ability to honestly assess the situation would drastically diminish.  I wanted to delay this for another few years.  
Alas, that seems to be exactly where we've wound up.  So much for pushing a rock up a hill.

A part of the problem -- in mental health terms -- is that we have all been trained to pretend that we are personally *responsible* for the situation.  We aren't.  Instead, it is being done to us.  In McLuhan's terms, we are being "run over" by these technologies.  And he believed that "understanding media" might help.  So do I.

In 1969 he wrote this in a letter to Jacques Maritain, "There is deep-seated repugnance in the human breast against understanding the processes in which we are involved.  Such understanding implies far to much responsibility for our actions."  Sounds like the "Justification Hypothesis" to me.  Explaining to people how they are *not* responsible for the world in which we live has now become an urgent task.  Mentally speaking.

My Facebook feed is filled with people demanding the "resignation" of Pope Francis over his allowing Ex-Cardinal McCarrick to not "go to jail" for his homosexual activities.  This is like the "lock her up"  
that still surrounds the 2016 election.  None of those involved have
*any* responsibility for dealing with any of these events.  But they have been "shaped" by their media environment to falsely think that they need to scream in public as-if they were.

Aristotle's "Politics" is instructive.  As any historian will certify Athens invented "democracy."  But Aristotle wasn't Athenian (while Plato was, as was his mentor Socrates, who was voted to death by
democracy.)  In fact, Aristotle was likely forced out multiple times and his Lyceum was officially banned for *not* being "from Athens"  
shortly after he died (leading to the disappearance of perhaps 50%+ of his work.)  Not surprisingly, he considered "democracy" to be a
*degenerate* form of government.

The American Constitution is not "democratic."  Presidents are not elected by the people.  The Senate was originally not a popular vote either and it has the final say on most important legislation (including Presidential impeachment.)  That was by design.  Careful design.  PRINT design.

Under RADIO conditions, Walter Lippmann famously argued that "democracy" can't possibly work -- an observation that was based on his direct experience with psychological warfare in WW I.  Then, after WW II, it only got worse.  Much worse.

Under TELEVISION conditions, as a cornerstone of the Cold War (called "cold" because it was a psychological war on everyone), the US became the bastion of "spreading democracy."  This even led the CIA to fund "Abstract Expressionism" and to send it on a world-tour of embassies, as a reflection of our "open-mindedness," compared to "Socialism Realism."  There are now books on all this.  What a mess.

The net effect of this *television* distortion of our lives has been to put people in what Joseph Heller called a "Catch-22." akin to what Gregory Bateson called a "double bind."  Since we are, in fact, not responsible for the wider world, but are told every day that we are, there is no psychological escape.  We are all being "run over" by the technologies we use and which have *formed* (or rather distorted) our psychological habits . . . !!

I strongly suspect that the *therapy* of the future -- hopefully derived from Gregg &al's work -- will help people to understand that their "place in the world" is radically different from what they were previously compelled to believe.  No, it is not our responsibility to "Save the cheerleader, save the world" (as we were instructed in the TV-show "Heroes.")  That was a fantasy.  Even an attractive one.

"World Peace" is probably the *mother* of all this.  As a matter of fact, nuclear weapons were specifically invented by Leo Szilard &al as a protege of H.G. Wells in order to force an end to warfare.  As a matter of fact, LSD became widespread in the population in an attempt to provoke an outbreak of "peace in our times."  As he details in his autobiography (and as he furthered explained in my conversation with him), Aldous Huxley recruited him to "dose the elites" for just this purpose.

We have lived our lives in a techno-psychological war-zone.  All of this has overwhelmed our lives in the past 50+ years.  Now, it all has to stop for the sake of our sanity . . . !!

Mark

P.S. In 2016, I was invited to give a local Jersey City TedX talk.   
When the organizers saw that I was going to suggest that our mental health was at stake, they cancelled my talk on the eve of the dress  
rehearsal.  They had gone "insane" as a result of the Trump election.   
Needless to say, suggesting in public that you actually don't have to vote and, indeed, that "politics" is bad for your health will be met with fierce opposition.  Just try it some day.

P.P.S. Yesterday Doug Rushkoff emailed me from the offices of the "think-and-do-tank" Data & Society to ask if I once lived in that building -- 36 W. 20th St.  Yes, I was the 4th floor (from 1996-2010) and he visited me there -- reminding him of the layout.  D&S is a very well-funded outfit that is now focused on how Facebook &al have "hijacked our minds."  Doug is about to go on tour for his soon-to-be published "Team Human."  This is *very* bad from a mental health standpoint.  Perhaps tellingly in terms of his own experiences, he uses the term "repress" on the cover.  As we all know, that's Freud-speak.  Down that road, does not lie our freedom.  That's how we got into this "Catch-22" in the first place.

Quoting Chance McDermott <[log in to unmask]>:

> Mark, thank you for your reply (!)
>
> The observations and challenges outlined by the research agendas on 
> the your Digital Life Center are the same challenges I have 
> experienced in attempting clinical psychological conceptualization of 
> college student mental health distress.  Without a shared 
> understanding of history, and without a clear, orienting direction we 
> are moving towards, it is a greater challenge to offer treatment with 
> intellectual integrity.  What is "causing" an individual's distress is 
> deceptively complex given wide variances in the multiplying, interacting, levels of analysis.
>
> However, Gregg's Unified Theory allows us to take an ethological 
> perspective (which is vastly preferable to a purely laboratory 
> perspective) to make determinations about how human beings operate in 
> general (architecture of the human mind), and what they need to 
> experience well-being (e.g., nourishment, security, love and support, 
> relational value).  Thus there is a great amount of detail at the 
> psychological level in the Unified Theory that has felt necessary in 
> divorcing "need versus want" at the cultural level when offering 
> interventions to clients.  Said another way, the Unified 
> Theory/Unified Approach is an operating system that allows a clinician 
> to quickly assess well-being considering a phylogenetically understood 
> hierarchy of needs, and then prioritization of intervention based upon 
> awareness of an individual's unique presentation in socio-cultural, idiographic space-time.
>
> It is one method by which the "humanness" can be authentically bridged 
> between two people from differing positions in the socio-cultural matrix.
> This alliance is an essential part of effective therapeutic work.  If 
> a client is lost in a personal reality and trying to find their way 
> back to balance, it is invaluable that the trusted clinician can "be 
> there" with the client as accurately as possible in surveying the 
> terrain to be traveled to an ideal state (the ideal state is 
> principle-based, with the details filled in by the client's own history).
>
> I have experienced significant, objective success using the Unified 
> Approach in my graduate training and internship with clients from many 
> different political perspectives and countries.  I am not a "global 
> man" by any stretch, and so I was indeed relying much on the Unified Theory.
>
> *So what is the problem? *
>
> Primarily, it has been the bi-directional shaping between culture and 
> technology.  My private search for help with this led me to McLuhan 
> during the 2016 year.  His lectures validated the importance I placed 
> on these questions, and yet it opened my eyes to a situation that was 
> alarming in its scope and its invisibility to many around me.  I 
> myself felt exposed, as if the ride I was on had stopped moving forward (and I suddenly realized
> I was on a ride in the first place   (!))
>
> So I could indeed help people repair at immediate and personal 
> relational levels of chaos, but anxiety caused by the uncertainty of 
> existing in a society moving in all different, non-linear direction 
> was becoming, to me, the salient issue we were all experiencing but 
> could not talk about effectively.  While the internet and social media 
> have now offered us vast narratives from which we try to determine 
> "what's going down," the quaking tectonics of this paradigm shift are primary in my awareness.
>
> One of the hopes here, I believe, is that if we could begin to discuss 
> these issues coherently at the process level, we could orient others 
> towards an adaptive, pro-social frame of reality.  We are perhaps 
> hoping to advocate a perspective which we can override as many 
> brown-eyes/blue-eyes triggers as possible so that we can get our feet 
> under us to clearly face global issues that we seem to be behind on, 
> and which we cannot focus on if we are ever suspicious of our own 
> neighbors and family.  Or, simply as a means of understanding what 
> paradigm we are currently living in so we can adjust as quickly as possible.
>
> Therefore, I am hopeful about the continued compatibility between the 
> Unified Theory and Marshal McLuhan, because there seems to be an 
> opportunity to model the human-environment interaction in a way that 
> may help protect our Western identities as we proceed forward with our 
> internal and global conflicts...
>
> -Chance
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:34 PM Mark Stahlman <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>> Chance:
>>
>> Yes -- this is not the world we were told (by *television*) that we 
>> would be inheriting . . . !!
>>
>> I am in complete agreement with Gregg that what is happening today 
>> amounts to a "Fifth Joint Point" in our "evolution" -- *caused* by 
>> digital technology.  However, that transition is *not* the one that 
>> most have thought would take place -- which is why a fresh look at 
>> all this, as ToK provides, is very important.  Even mind-blowing.
>>
>> As a McLuhan scholar, it is my view that new *paradigms*, such as the 
>> one we are already occupying, mean new "mentalities."  Btw, this is 
>> also the view of Merlin Donald, whose work Gregg has carefully 
>> studied.  But this is not simply a sequence or progression.  Instead, 
>> there is an enormous amount of "retrieval" of our past that is also 
>> involved.  That is where McLuhan's Tetrad comes in (about which I run 
>> the Facebook group), as described in his "Laws of Media" (1988,
>> posthumous.)
>>
>> The most recent -- but now obsolete -- ELECTRIC paradigm (say from c.
>> 1850-2000) *retrieved* a period in human evolution that we would call 
>> "archaic" or, more specifically, "pre-literate."  Today it is common 
>> to call this "post-literate" by those who can only think in terms of 
>> "progress" but, as we should be able to observe, losing our capacity 
>> for literate thinking is not really "progress."  Among other things, 
>> it makes us more easily manipulated.  Thus "fake news."  And totally 
>> undermines "intellectual integrity."  Thus Trump.
>>
>> The new paradigm -- based on DIGITAL technology -- is different.  In 
>> particular, it "biases" us towards Memory (not Fantasy) and, as a 
>> result, my Center has the motto "Digital retrieves the Medieval."  We 
>> are convinced that means a "come-back" for Aristotle (who as also 
>> retrieved in the 13th-century), so we have been researching all this 
>> for a while -- leading to Jeff Martineau's LADS seminar this summer 
>> in which he taught 30+ people Aristotle's "On the Soul" (or, as it is 
>> more commonly called from the Latin, "De Anima.")
>>
>> If you go to Amazon and enter "neo-Aristotelian" in the search, you 
>> will find 20+ titles with that phrase.  Many more will come.  We 
>> think that this is a sign-of-the-times . . . <g>
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> Quoting Chance McDermott <[log in to unmask]>:
>>
>> > Chilling assessment, Mark.  It is painful to imagine a world that 
>> > re-commits to brown-eye/blue-eye, us/them cynicism.  Of course we 
>> > are
>> stuck
>> > with that othering mechanism as human beings (for example, there 
>> > are
>> people
>> > who understand that mechanism, and people who don't), and yet if we
>> abandon
>> > "family of man" as the stated goal, then we find ourselves in a
>> significant
>> > identity crisis.
>> >
>> > Do I understand correctly that this is part of the urgency in 
>> > advocating
>> a
>> > Western identity based upon on Aristotle?
>> >
>> > -Chance
>> >
>> > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 8:12 AM Mark Stahlman 
>> > <[log in to unmask]>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Tokers:
>> >>
>> >> While I can't vouch for all the details in this item, I can state 
>> >> from direct experience that two years ago the Chinese were 
>> >> rounding up
>> Uighurs
>> >> in Shanghai and "deporting" them to Xinjaing.  I actually saw it 
>> >> in
>> action
>> >> on the streets there.
>> >>
>> >> "Xinjiang is now a totalitarian police state of historic 
>> >> proportions —
>> it
>> >> is widely cited as one of the most heavily policed places in the 
>> >> world today. Public security budgets have skyrocketed and 
>> >> futuristic
>> surveillance
>> >> systems have been pioneered in the region. As a result, over 20 
>> >> percent
>> of
>> >> all criminal arrests in China happens in Xinjiang, despite the 
>> >> fact that the region contains only 1.5 percent of the country’s population."
>> >>
>> >> "In the camps, officials seek to brainwash prisoners to disavow 
>> >> Islam
>> and
>> >> pledge loyalty to the Communist Party, and torture those who refuse."
>> >>
>> >> "Arbitrary detentions without charge or trial are the norm for 
>> >> prisoners in these camps, and ethnically Kazakh Muslims have been 
>> >> “disappeared” in large numbers along with Uyghurs. Common “crimes” 
>> >> are “viewing foreign websites, taking phone calls from relatives 
>> >> abroad, praying regularly or growing a beard.” The widespread use 
>> >> of arbitrary detention is also
>> being
>> >> used as a tool to force Uyghurs abroad into silence."
>> >>
>> >> <
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__supchina.com_201
>> 8_08_22_xinjiang-2Dexplainer-2Dchinas-2Dreeducation-2Dcamps-2Dfor-2Da
>> -2Dmillion-2Dmuslims_&d=DwMBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5n
>> BEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=X-RdbOknBVQKy
>> wj0rdYxyCTA_j7LUmVegoA_I0_HMlw&s=AhHCO_atxpDBQFarQtajUJpMF2fpK3eLp4xh
>> 0NrR3Ig&e=
>> >
>> >> About this website
>> >> supchina.com
>> >> China’s re-education camps for a million Muslims: What everyone 
>> >> needs to know <
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__supchina.com_201
>> 8_08_22_xinjiang-2Dexplainer-2Dchinas-2Dreeducation-2Dcamps-2Dfor-2Da
>> -2Dmillion-2Dmuslims_&d=DwMBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5n
>> BEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=X-RdbOknBVQKy
>> wj0rdYxyCTA_j7LUmVegoA_I0_HMlw&s=AhHCO_atxpDBQFarQtajUJpMF2fpK3eLp4xh
>> 0NrR3Ig&e=
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Islam is *alphabetic* and, therefore, West, whereas the Chinese are
>> >> *ideo/pictogrpahic* and, therefore, East.  These are two fundamentally
>> >> different Cultures (capital "C") with fundamentally different language
>> >> technologies at the root of their 2000+ year formation. As a result,
>> Islam
>> >> cannot survive in China.  Indeed, nothing "alphabetic" will survive.
>> >>
>> >> As some might have noticed, Marxism is *also* Western.  Accordingly,
>> from
>> >> 2004-2011 the Central Party School in Beijing -- where all CPC senior
>> cadre
>> >> are trained (modelled on the French ecole hierarchy) -- completely
>> scrubbed
>> >> Marxism of its Western traces and "Sinicized" it.  This past May, I was
>> in
>> >> Beijing at the 2nd World Congress on Marxism to personally observe the
>> >> results.  The Western Marxists invited to attend were completely
>> baffled at
>> >> what had been done -- but happy for the free plane tickets.
>> >>
>> >> Now the CPS is teaching Confucius and Laotze to these cadres -- while
>> also
>> >> proclaiming publicly that it will win the "War of the Robots" . . . !!
>> >>
>> >>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_AI-2DSuperpowers-2DChina-2DSilicon-2DValley_dp_132854639X&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=I7DEa5YxOdkJ7gJgGBvCaLsedEJVAF-yRsXg46rgKqc&s=rxD7nr7K3Ypx3eJyBfBXT4oWZsf5a-214o4fKNqAJDY&e=
>> >>
>> >> I was supposed to be back there a week ago but the CPC stopped my
>> approval
>> >> to discuss the "robot problem" with one of their researchers.  It isn't
>> >> clear if I will be allowed to return.  Stories are circulating that "CIA
>> >> collaborators" are being arrested and killed and I'm in their "system"
>> as a
>> >> "US spy."  Now it is being reported that it was the Chinese (not the
>> >> Russians) who actually hacked the election (or at least Hilary's closet
>> >> servers.)
>> >>
>> >> When Mao took over, many attempted to "simplify" the difficult Chinese
>> >> writing system -- which is still foundational, as reflected in the
>> general
>> >> use of Chinese subtitles in Chinese movies, since the "accents" of many
>> >> actors cannot be understood everywhere in China.  That simplification
>> then
>> >> led to the teaching of the alphabet to Chinese children, so that they
>> could
>> >> use it for the Pinyin representation of the language.  This is now the
>> >> basis of Chinese use of Western technology, since smart-phones don't
>> have
>> >> "Chinese" keyboards.  Perhaps that will be the next target?
>> >>
>> >> There is no chance that China will allow itself to become a part of the
>> >> "Global System" -- other than, as has now become headlines, to take
>> >> advantage of it.  As anyone involved in science/technology at the
>> >> graduate-level knows, many (if not most) of the accomplished students in
>> >> these fields are Chinese.  In effect, our education system has become
>> >> theirs.  No, that does not mean that China is becoming like us.  It
>> means
>> >> that they are "stealing" our ideas.
>> >>
>> >> This presents many problems, particularly in the field of national
>> >> security.  This past Sunday's "60 Minutes" had a segment on two
>> >> Chinese-Americans whose lives were upended on suspicions of them being
>> >> Chinese spys.  The most recent National Security Strategy (NSS 2018)
>> >> introduced the topic of "National Security Information Base" for the
>> first
>> >> time.  Everyone involved knows that China was the target.  Whatever else
>> >> you might think about Trump, he inherited a front-row seat for a world
>> in
>> >> massive conflict (largely ignored by the press which is, instead,
>> obsessed
>> >> with eliminating him.)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.whitehouse.gov_wp-2Dcontent_uploads_2017_12_NSS-2DFinal-2D12-2D18-2D2017-2D0905-2D2.pdf&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=I7DEa5YxOdkJ7gJgGBvCaLsedEJVAF-yRsXg46rgKqc&s=wdfc4pHJ60zKw0Yp-8mIL-km9YarrNrdDfyvAUd93uk&e=
>> >>
>> >> At the Center, we have concluded that their are *three* over-lapping
>> >> "global operating systems": East, West and Digital.  The TELEVISION-era
>> >> notion of "One World" is totally defunct.  Nobody takes the United
>> Nations
>> >> (or IMF/World Bank &c) seriously anymore.  We have added DIGITAL because
>> >> that's now the driver for *all* Cultures (capital "C" and plural) --
>> >> including the *new* one that wants to eliminate humanity (by
>> "upgrading" it
>> >> and "colonizing Mars.")
>> >>
>> >> Yes, as the Chinese saying goes, "May you live in interesting times" .
>> . .
>> >> <g>
>> >>
>> >> Mark
>> >>
>> >> P.S. In the late-70s (when I was in my late 20s), I invented what was
>> then
>> >> the world's most accurate (in terms of representing the language) Arabic
>> >> wordprocessor.  It was called "The Diplomat."  I became an expert in
>> Arabic
>> >> calligraphy but never learned to speak or read the language.  NEC in
>> Japan
>> >> hired me to design wheels for their Spinwriter.  The Saudi government
>> >> invited me to help them standarize Arabic for computers (i.e. the
>> >> equivalent of ASCII).  I once spent $10,000 on a hotel bill in Riyadh,
>> >> while drinking $100 Swiss grapejuice.  One Thanksgiving, I was almost
>> >> killed on the highway to Dhahran (leading me to propose over the phone
>> to
>> >> the mother of my children.)
>> >>
>> >> As a result, I know a little about Islam.  What is happening now in
>> China
>> >> is, from their standpoint, the only thing they can do and they will be
>> >> ruthless in carrying it out.  Any notion of there being a "family of
>> man"
>> >> should be re-examined.  It's only going to get worse, as Sam Huntington
>> >> correctly predicted 30 years ago but, alas, since ELECTRICITY *formed*
>> our
>> >> elites, he was ignored.  "Globalism" is dead -- which is why Trump was
>> >> elected.  The "World Order" has already been remade.  And, as they say,
>> >> "Something's strange in the neighborhood! Who are you going to call?"
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Clash-2DCivilizations-2DRemaking-2DWorld-2DOrder_dp_1451628978&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=I7DEa5YxOdkJ7gJgGBvCaLsedEJVAF-yRsXg46rgKqc&s=xbm8imdcJ9BaurooL0uoSVfKoa0Lsij1mZkh4qrBMho&e=
>> >>
>> >>
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