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January 2019

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From:
JOHN TORDAY <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Tue, 22 Jan 2019 06:42:52 -0800
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Hi Joe et al, thank you for the feed-back. I know that the language
unfortunately tends to get in the way when we talk across disciplines. My
hope is that we can overarch the semantic problem, and your response is
indicative of that. Having said that, the one key idea that I would like to
get across is that all 'material' existence is the product of the 'equal
and opposite reaction' to the Big Bang due to Newton's Third Law of Motion.
Without that, there would be no matter in the Cosmos, only energy (So for
example, Alfred North Whitehead theorized that the predominant 'process' is
energetic interactions, and that the material state is merely a transient
state of being). That 'equal and opposite reaction' is the origin of
homeostasis for both the biologic and non-biologic realms. In physics,
homeostasis is what produces balanced chemical reactions that form the
rocks and dirt that we live on. So all of the material Cosmos originates
from the same fundamental process. The core difference is that chemical
homeostasis leads to stasis or stability, whereas biologic homeostasis
allows for an on-going interactive 'dialogue' with the Cosmos, forming and
reforming in order to cope with the ever-changing environment through
direct epigenetic inheritance from the environment, or what we refer to as
Evolution. And to be clear, I think that it is the combination of evolution
as the endogenization of the external environment (see Lynn Margulis's
'Endosymbiosis Theory') that forms our internal physiologic 'knowledge' of
the Cosmos/Natural Laws by compartmentalizing it and making it useful for
survival and perpetuation of the species. When that construct is combined
with our active dialogue with the environment, it generates what we think
of anthropomorphically as Consciousness. But to reiterate, all matter has
that Cosmic blueprint baked in to it, we just happen to take that blueprint
and animate it (like Chalmer's "hard problem", or the concept of
disembodied consciousness expressed by Andy Clark), but that's just who and
what we are as a species, no more, no less. Unfortunately, it also makes us
extremely Narcissistic because we are the only species that 'knows that we
know', which tends to innately strike fear of death into us, BUT that is
mitigated by the perpetual gaining of knowledge through the scientific
method. So in terms of David Bohm's expression of this in his book
"Wholeness and the Implicate Order" as The Explicate Order, which is the
way we see things through our subjective senses, versus the Implicate
Order, which is the absolute true order of things, scientific knowledge
moves us ever further away from the Explicate Order, and toward the
Implicate Order. I hope that was helpful, and I welcome any and all
comments, criticisms, etc, etc in the spirit of constructive dialogue.

On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 5:27 AM Joseph Michalski <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Greetings from the frozen north John (et al.). Thank you for your latest
> contributions. As ever, I find your work tremendously fascinating. I think
> I largely agree with your argument. Maybe I'm just struggling with the
> semantics in some ways. I fully agree with the linkage of energy to the
> homeostatic processes and the various "survival" mechanisms in nature
> across all forms of life. And I entirely agree with your argument about
> cellular efforts to maintain information distinctiveness and energy
> efficiencies, at least at the theoretical level (I have no applied
> experience in the field beyond my novice attempts to study life through
> microscopes as an undergraduate!). Perhaps it's just the fact that, apart
> from our anthropomorphism, we have just conventionally used the term
> "consciousness" in conjunction with the presence of the "mind" and mental
> behavior. But if you're main argument, as I get used to the more complex
> language you use to describe the biological processes, is that everything
> biological - from the cellular to the organismic levels - responds to their
> environments by deploying energy and processing information to maintain
> organizational continuity (my wording) or homeostasis, then I agree fully.
> And then, as you've indicated, you can define consciousness & intelligence
> as linked to these processes as opposed to our usual link to the Mind or
> "mental behavior." Or maybe I'm must over(under?)-thinking the argument!
>
>
> Thanks again for sharing some of your latest work. I do think that you and
> your colleagues have offered a fascinating argument about how to
> conceptualize the "self" in an even grander fashion. With kind regards, -Joe
>
>
> Dr. Joseph H. Michalski
>
> Associate Academic Dean
>
> King’s University College at Western University
>
> 266 Epworth Avenue
>
> London, Ontario, Canada  N6A 2M3
>
> Tel: (519) 433-3491
>
> Fax: (519) 963-1263
>
> Email: [log in to unmask]
>
> ______________________
>
> *ei*π + 1 = 0
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion <
> [log in to unmask]> on behalf of JOHN TORDAY <[log in to unmask]
> >
> *Sent:* Monday, January 21, 2019 1:54 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: + True Good Beautiful Self-States
>
> Dear Gregg and Joe, thanks for sharing that clip from Amadeus. Based on my
> own reduction of 'self' with Bill Miller (see attached; ideally to be read
> in the context of 'The Singularity of Nature' (see attached), I think that
> the transactional process between Salieri and Mozart required that both had
> a strong sense of who they were, because if not, one would have subsumed
> the other for lack of 'character strength' for lack of a better term.
> Ideally, they would have struck a homeostatic 'balance' that you are
> referring to as the + TGB SS. But ultimately I think we have to understand
> the premise of 'how and why' we exist or this is all just sophistry. Why
> homeostasis- because it is the mechanism that prevailed post-Big
> Bang....the 'equal and opposite reaction that ascribes to Newton's Third
> Law of Motion. I say that because without it there would be no matter, just
> free, chaotic energy (Alfred North Whitehead's 'Process Philosophy'). So
> homeostasis is the universal principle behind all matter, inanimate and
> animate alike. So that would suggest pan-psychism, which we agree seems
> silly- a rock is not conscious, unless we are defining consciousness as
> what we humans think it is, but is not.  Cut to the chase, I think that we
> misconstrue consciousness as being aware of ourselves and our surroundings,
> but that is an anthropomorphism. All organisms are conscious, it's just a
> function of their particular environment/Niche as to what it constitutes,
> which is the endogenization of the external environment, forming physiology
> by compartmentalizing those features of the Laws of Nature in order to
> survive and remain in sync with The First Principles of Physiology, which
> reference the Singularity prior to the Big Bang. So in other words
> Consciousness is the way in which we and all matter connect with the Cosmos
> as the entirety of the product of the Singularity/Big Bang. Only then will
> we understand the + TGB SS, IMHO.
>
> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 6:02 AM Joseph Michalski <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Thanks for sharing Gregg. Indeed, I had transcribed the words of the clip
> and shared these because I thought it represented such an excellent example
> of what the pursuit of the TGB looks like when, however fleetingly, that
> occurs unfettered by all the trappings of one's ego. It's below zero here
> (Fahrenheit), but I already have a warm feeling for the rest of the day!
> Peace, -Joe
>
>
> Dr. Joseph H. Michalski
>
> Associate Academic Dean
>
> King’s University College at Western University
>
> 266 Epworth Avenue
>
> London, Ontario, Canada  N6A 2M3
>
> Tel: (519) 433-3491
>
> Fax: (519) 963-1263
>
> Email: [log in to unmask]
>
> ______________________
>
> *ei*π + 1 = 0
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion <
> [log in to unmask]> on behalf of Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <
> [log in to unmask]>
> *Sent:* Monday, January 21, 2019 8:15 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* + True Good Beautiful Self-States
>
>
> Hi List,
>
>   Joe M and I were talking yesterday about the nature of Positive
> True/Good/Beautiful Self-states (+ TGB SS), relative to Negative
> False/Bad/Ugly Self-States (- FBU SS). He reminded me of the movie Amadeus,
> and explained why it was such a great illustration of these dynamics
> (although apparently the movie is not exactly an accurate portrayal of
> Salieri’s actual relationship to Mozart). In the movie, Salieri struggles
> with feelings of jealousy, envy and inadequacy, and at the same time, loves
> the beauty of Mozart.
>
>
>
>   Here is a great clip where he makes full contact with that side of the
> equation and thus you can see and feel the + TGB SS flow…
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__video.search.yahoo.com_yhs_search-3Ffr-3Dyhs-2Ditm-2D001-26hsimp-3Dyhs-2D001-26hspart-3Ditm-26p-3Dmozart-2Bsalieri-2Bfavorite-23id-3D1-26vid-3Dec20d8e7c1a0f8481a186b0532e2f150-26action-3Dclick&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=7NRTMHHzRedzoTn08_6B8Op6RPVHpxPp_kOzhHHqqiY&s=SqejBwrJr4WKaGxp1vzhXpDo-mzGaVt1SAKRNYgaA44&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__video.search.yahoo.com_yhs_search-3Ffr-3Dyhs-2Ditm-2D001-26hsimp-3Dyhs-2D001-26hspart-3Ditm-26p-3Dmozart-2Bsalieri-2Bfavorite-23id-3D1-26vid-3Dec20d8e7c1a0f8481a186b0532e2f150-26action-3Dclick&d=DwMF-w&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=joZshrnMRKKNH0IZ2n6Sp_XKKxlpaFEIULZwPzqQLyw&s=A8VyhjcugTf7mTdBvnCpsx0F1g304JzMc1WBdDtH2KQ&e=>
> mozart salieri favorite - Yahoo Video Search Results
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__video.search.yahoo.com_yhs_search-3Ffr-3Dyhs-2Ditm-2D001-26hsimp-3Dyhs-2D001-26hspart-3Ditm-26p-3Dmozart-2Bsalieri-2Bfavorite-23id-3D1-26vid-3Dec20d8e7c1a0f8481a186b0532e2f150-26action-3Dclick&d=DwMF-w&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=joZshrnMRKKNH0IZ2n6Sp_XKKxlpaFEIULZwPzqQLyw&s=A8VyhjcugTf7mTdBvnCpsx0F1g304JzMc1WBdDtH2KQ&e=>
> video.search.yahoo.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__video.search.yahoo.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=felM6t-23shozx04zWWYuMYveYgVSLrmBcAdF8HJ0ls&s=41mXkwngbtuHsClipM7egoI1AAGfDEOhjHs9BjlCQwQ&e=>
> The search engine that helps you find exactly what you're looking for.
> Find the most relevant information, video, images, and answers from all
> across the Web.
>
>
>
>   Thanks to Joe who pointed this out to me yesterday.
>
>
>
> Best,
> G
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