Thanks, Zak, this is helpful.
Helen, I want to be clear I did not mean to dismiss your concerns. I brought up Andrew Yang because I thought he had some important pieces to reflect on, most notably for me a "sensibility" about the values we want to consider.
And, BTW, "education" can be thought of as a "code" for fundamentally rethinking the nature of human nature and the situation we find ourselves in. We are "between worlds" and we need a new, scientific humanistic metapsychology that can inform our transition.
Best,
G
-----Original Message-----
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Zachary Stein
Sent: Wednesday, October 9, 2019 9:23 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: podcast with Andrew Yang
Totally Helen. Thanks for this. I hear you, and to be clear, I am a supporter of a properly implemented set of radical socio-economic policy changes, including a UBI.
The problem on this thread is that there are a few things unfolding. One concerns the presidential election and what is being said, by who, and what could actually be done by any elected official, etc. The other issues concern foundational problems in political and economic theory.
I have very little to say that is not utterly radical about the 2020 election situation...
So I am sticking to the topics in political economy.
Alexander hits the nail on the head:
"Don't fiddle with the deep deep human connection between contribution and reward is my suggestion.”
But, my dear Alexander, our fiddling with this connection is already the heart of the problem. We have already deeply fucked it up... This was my point about the *the massive and ever increasing economic inequality.*(!)
Consider this data from Piketty:
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__piketty.pse.ens.fr_files_capital21c_en_pdf_F11.11.pdf&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=GnlnhKhfaXgzXHtv49mZRgbwzURspoigX2ZFwCDpoh4&s=aP0bq0H5DEi5te-21S342-ceKeAdEMTx75cCTWwWwoc&e=
"Within the cohorts born around 1970-1980, 12-14% of individuals receive in inheritance the equivalent of the lifetime labor income received by the bottom 50% less well paid workers.” [Let that one sink in.]
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__piketty.pse.ens.fr_files_capital21c_en_pdf_F8.8.pdf&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=GnlnhKhfaXgzXHtv49mZRgbwzURspoigX2ZFwCDpoh4&s=tlL1o8rQ1HMEolMt9enzpYEYuuZ38fNp0x_zj2l0MGU&e=
"The rise in the top 1% highest incomes since the 1970s is largely due to the rise in the top 1% highest wages” [Note that we have nearly surpassed the Gilded Age in inequality and its speeding up.]
This way of arranging the connection between contribution and reward (i.e., having the most empowered classes signal that there is no connection) is a ticking social time bomb.
I would say that this kind of inequality is way worse in its net effects than a UBI.
However, what if a UBI is rolled out and the rest of the situation described in the figures above does not change? Then it is like the aristocrats using cash to pay off a mob wielding pitch forks, knowing full well there is no plan to change the overall arrangement, and that in a few years they will have better defenses.
A far as I can tell no President is capable of or interested in changing this overall arrangement (sorry Bennie, you’ll need to sell that house in Grand Isle VT). But now we are back to my radical ideas about 2020…
Crisp morning in the Green Mountains.
zak
> On Oct 9, 2019, at 8:34 AM, Helen Wu <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> This discussion makes me frustrated. $1000 a month is not enough to cancel work. We are not talking about a $50,000 per year UBI here. It is just enough so you are not going to end up on a downward spiral if there are sudden financial difficulties. Saudi Arabia has a lot more problems than UBI. Not sure if that's the best example. Half of my family is working class and I know so many people who need some money now. They are not lazy and they are not going to lose their souls/spirit. They don't have the time for education. They just need some help so that they can have some breathing space to move on towards their goal.
>
> Best,
> Helen
>
> On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 5:54 AM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Zak,
>
> What I think we should be investing in is an education of the human soul toward the spirit…now that is a collective universal I could get behind!
>
>
>
> Of course, as a psychotherapist, most of my work is soul work, so I will leave the truly spiritual stuff to the real gurus.
>
>
> Best,
> Gregg
>
>
>
> From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Alexander Bard
> Sent: Wednesday, October 9, 2019 3:26 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: podcast with Andrew Yang
>
>
>
> I agree 100% with dear Zachary.
>
> There actually already exists one massive UBI experiment in the world and you may study it to see how it all went.
>
> It is called Saudi Arabia.
>
> Shopping centers full of 29-year-old obese diabetics while foreigners do all the meaningful paid work in the country.
>
> Is that the sort of society you would want to create?
>
> Don't fiddle with the deep deep human connection between contribution and reward is my suggestion. And forget that there won't be any jobs in the future. There will tons of them. The question what kind of experiemtial quality they will provide though. But that's an entirely different matter and not a case for UBI (which still has to be paid, massively paid, by somebody as well).
>
> Best intentions
>
> Alexander
>
>
>
> Den tis 8 okt. 2019 kl 21:49 skrev Zachary Stein <[log in to unmask]>:
>
> Hi ToK list,
>
>
>
> Having published about UBI as a non expert (I am a philosopher of education [UBI is one of my “social miracles”]), I will say that it is dangerous when taken up in isolation from other social programs and especially educational initiatives.
>
>
>
> Indeed, there are scenarios where the UBI is a true nightmare, and I am not talking about inflation and other economic fallout — I am talking about meaninglessness, de-skilled apathy, addiction, suicide, i.e., total/catastrophic mental health crisis. (The same holds for a so-called "guaranteed work program," if done in isolation from related social programs and educational initiatives).
>
>
>
> UBI is as much (more so?) an educational/cultural issue then a math problem in economics.
>
>
>
> Even if we can make the numbers work the real hard problem is making the idea work as a part of the current human identity structure (i.e., as part of our self-system's role-taking and social justification dynamics).
>
>
>
> Who am I if I am not a wage laborer? That is the question. If the culture and individual can’t answer that but the economists and politicians go ahead and take away the category of wage labor, well, there will be a society wide equivalent of an identity crisis or nervous breakdown.
>
>
>
> Of course, the elephant in the room is *the massive and ever increasing economic inequality.* Remember when Piketty was a best seller? The math he laid out is still true. The whole compounding interest thing still holds. UBI may be a nonstarter but something (somebody?) has to give.
>
>
>
> Instead of justifying UBI to people taking issue, I often ask "what else sounds good that is as radical in its admission of the need for redistribution?” My answer has something to do with an education renaissance/revolution, but that is another story.
>
>
>
> Fall colors in Vermont.
>
>
>
> zak
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 8, 2019, at 2:55 PM, nysa71 <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
>
> Gregg,
>
> Here's a link to the Job Guarantee FAQ by Pavlina Tcherneva, Associate Professor of Economics at Bard University and research scholar at the Levy Institute. She specializes in Modern Monetary Theory and public policy, and is one of the foremost experts on the Job Guarantee proposal. Besides the FAQ, there's all kinds of publications and videos on the JG, (plus other topics, including Pavlina's issues with the UBI).
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.pavlina-2Dtcherneva.net_job-2Dguarantee-2Dfaq&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=GnlnhKhfaXgzXHtv49mZRgbwzURspoigX2ZFwCDpoh4&s=s1KIakCBK5p7I-6c0En59v_9nhxsdbJLzDPkw4NeI0w&e=
>
> ~ Jason Bessey
>
>
>
> Job Guarantee FAQ | pavlina-tcherneva
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, October 8, 2019, 09:41:00 AM EDT, Peter Lloyd Jones <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Bad email program…
>
> Should be:
>
> Beyond that there is no substantive threat.
>
>
>
>
>
> Peter Lloyd Jones
> [log in to unmask]
> 562-209-4080
>
> Sent by determined causes that no amount of will is able to thwart.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 8, 2019, at 9:37 AM, Peter Lloyd Jones <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
>
> Thank you Joseph for your note about tempering expectations.
>
>
>
> As a former mediocre road racer, I have a lot of experience in riding around on race tracks during races. Yang is using his presidential-candidate platform to promote certain ideas. Beyond that there is substantive threat. O’Rourke has stated that he will take away our guns. They are both introducing progressive concepts because, without blood, politics moves slowly. You need to start somewhere. They know that they have sacraficed their candidacies to mold allowable discussions moving forward. Years ago if you just asked if weed might have medical uses, your political career was over. Today...
>
>
>
> This is about ideas, which might be good and bad ideas, but it’s not about who will be the next president.
>
>
>
> Vote early and often.
>
> Best to all,
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
> Peter Lloyd Jones
> [log in to unmask]
> 562-209-4080
>
> Sent by determined causes that no amount of will is able to thwart.
>
>
>
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
>
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
>
>
>
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
>
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
>
> ############################
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
>
> ############################
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
>
############################
To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list:
write to: mailto:[log in to unmask]
or click the following link:
http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
############################
To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list:
write to: mailto:[log in to unmask]
or click the following link:
http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
|
