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June 2020

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Wed, 24 Jun 2020 05:13:11 +0000
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tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]>
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Christopher Hadnagy <[log in to unmask]>
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Corinne,

You didn't offend me, I love this discussion.

I left out the ending of the story with my daughter.  Every night I go into her room and we spend 30-40 mins just talking and we look at silly pictures and we talk.

That night I brought up that I was sorry she felt I was not sensitive and she broke down to tell me that she was just angry and it wasn't at me. All of her black friends are afraid to drive, afraid to get pulled over, afraid to meet a cop - she doesn't feel that fear and she never will. So she felt angry that her skin gave her a privilege they don't have. Her anger was not really at me, it was just anger.  We hugged it out.  Even if we didn't you are right there is not much she could say that would get in the way of our love and respect for each other.

I have not seen the videos from France. I have a hard time trying to watch all this violence.  My day job and my nonprofit put me in the light of the a lot of horrible violence so I try to limit my social media exposure to it, especially since American media is so slanted in how they present what is happening.  Many years ago I was in India on some work. On the news on night they showed pictures of a European country that was burning these life sized dolls of George Bush wrapped in American Flags. While talking with my wife I expressed my shock and she couldn't find anything about this on US news or any websites.  It was my first "indoctrination" into how awfully biased the US media machine was.

Anyhow this seems to have gotten worse in the recent times. Your idea of a choice list or blank field is probably what she did eventually. But I think you and I are from the same generation, coffee with some cream is all I need.
(

Chris



On 6/24/20, 12:52 AM, "tree of knowledge system discussion on behalf of Diop, Corinne Joan Martin - diopcj" <[log in to unmask] on behalf of [log in to unmask]> wrote:

    Hi Chris,

    Your reply is so interesting to read! It seems like you and your daughter did have a healthy debate-- and it ended with her thinking you are a “privileged white male with no understanding” and you don't think you are :) I am sure that doesn't get in the way of your mutual love and respect for each other!

    Did you watch footage of the gilets jaunes trashing Paris? I watched a bunch of them crashing in the windows of a restaurant on Champs-Élysées-- they proceeded to bash the very table and chairs in the corner that I remembered sitting in the year prior, and I am sure that nice waiter we had wasn't going to be able to work again for a long time after that destruction. I don't condone violence and found it painful to watch what they were doing each week, but this is apparently a natural human response to despair that goes beyond logic-- and it led to 10 billion euros for new government policies and for the poor that probably wouldn't have happened otherwise? Before it finally ended in Macron listening and in reform, there were many riot police - protestor clashes, including tear gas and brutality. Sounds too familiar, around the world.

    (From NBC: Who are France's 'Yellow Jacket' protesters and what do they want? "The forgotten middle class" has taken to the country's streets. "They feel like the political elite is forgetting about them," one expert said.)
    https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nbcnews.com_news_world_who-2Dare-2Dfrance-2Ds-2Dyellow-2Djacket-2Dprotesters-2Dwhat-2Ddo-2Dthey-2Dn940016&d=DwIGaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=YGuccZzkn0qLkSUCAncTLqzKu5XwGsrX2qjppaj5n4g&s=l565kJTRNnOEYnt5iL7WCmAJSqI3gGMoyIA1pu3XZTE&e= 

    On a positive note from my experience as an art professor for 30 years, I agree with your analyses that the new society is more loving and understanding than it used to be. When I first started teaching there was a competitive feeling and students would rip each other's work apart, but I find that now they support and encourage each other and feel free to share their personal stories in their work and in words. There are usually a few students who do their final portfolio about their personal trials with anxiety, depression, abuse, or body image-- there is no eye rolling from those who don't have those experiences, just support and compassion. They have each other's backs.

    The university teacher you mentioned could have considered having a fill-in-the-blank option on the survey instead of being frustrated with the long list of choices they require! The students get very specific when ordering how they want their coffee prepared at Starbucks too, no simple black coffee (or maybe with cream & sugar) like my generation. Eskimos apparently have many words in their language for snow-- fresh snow, soft deep snow, fine snow, snow bank, snow flake... I don't need 50 words for snow but some people do.

    I am not intending to be insensitive either (and hope you didn't find this to be), rather I am finding this fascinating, as I am trying to figure it out too!

    Corinne

    ________________________________________
    From: tree of knowledge system discussion [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Christopher Hadnagy [[log in to unmask]]
    Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 9:57 PM
    To: [log in to unmask]
    Subject: Re: Transdisciplinary Philosophy of Science Paradigm

    I am not nearly as smart or educated as most in this group. But this topic resonates with me.  I see this from both angles.  This new society has helped us be more loving and understanding of those who have differences, whether that is sexual preference or beliefs etc.  Go back to the 70-80’s and it was such a different world.

    At the same time this new generation MUST be so accepting of anything I feel it actually hurts us in many ways. There is so much fear to say or do the wrong thing that often times I feel the power of healthy debate is ruined.  Just the other day I had a conversation with my daughter about the difference in a true BLM movement and the looting and rioting we see.  And she was quick to label me as a “privileged white male with no understanding”.  All I tried to do was make a point that after hundreds of years of oppression and hurt you can truly try to empathize with the pain and suffering and legitimate anger of those now fearing law enforcement.  But that does not justify burning, looting and ruing the lives of people of any color that were not part of those atrocities.

    Times of open debate where you can walk away and knowingly disagree with out being disagreeable seem to have ended.  I had this fascinating conversation with a teacher in a university here where she had to change survey’s she sent out cause they had “male/female” choices and those who were trans got upset. So she added that. Then the nonbinaries got upset. So she added that. Then there was the pans and others… the end result was out of sheer exhaustion she just threw it away and no longer sends it.

    Anyhow, even in writing this I am so worried that I am saying something that seems insensitive and wrong.

    All of this to say, I read your email and I agree – we are losing this ability and I feel it is just going to hurt us not help us.
    Chris



    From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Liz Swan <[log in to unmask]>
    Reply-To: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]>
    Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 at 12:19 PM
    To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
    Subject: Re: Transdisciplinary Philosophy of Science Paradigm

    Andrea,

    As an American, I certainly like your view of Americans and think we sometimes sort of live up to it...

    A friend sent me this article from NYT today<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nytimes.com_2020_06_22_opinion_trump-2Dprotest-2Dgen-2Dz.html-3FreferringSource-3DarticleShare&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ojq0cmMR9dlHXwjQnkZ37DJSQmVZmtAwIWhyfih0IS8&s=5DS9g0j0V9zUod9xicM7jZC64i3_091EsZWrY26ce0Q&e=>. My worry is that the American spirit of being able to engage and discuss and argue intellectually might be eroding in younger generations (those in college now). My students at CU Boulder are extremely uncomfortable in casual, meant to be fun debates in the classroom, tiptoe around or altogether avoid difficult subjects like race, and I've heard instructors say they too "shut down" uncomfortable discussions in the classroom so no one gets hurt. It's viscerally disturbing to me.

    I like your version of "the American way" much more and think it's ultimately more productive in getting ideas on the table for rejection or negotiation.

    Liz



    [Image removed by sender.]

    LIZ SWAN, PHD



    Psychology Today<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_experts_liz-2Dstillwaggon-2Dswan-2Dphd&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ojq0cmMR9dlHXwjQnkZ37DJSQmVZmtAwIWhyfih0IS8&s=k8Aa7HKbbzsP4vzyVFDB2RjliYl_qPArHbsGZSPtpNY&e=> blogs: "The Philosopher is In" and "College Confidential"

    Swan Real Estate LLC<mailto:[log in to unmask]>

    200-Hour RYT Yoga Instructor


    On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 9:24 AM Andrea Zagaria <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
    Mmm. It`s sad when people are not interested in fostering a dialogue.

    As a European myself, I have to acknowledge an important fact: we may have a great philosophical tradition, but often we are very narrow minded and we are not very able to connect theory with practice.
    The "american way", in this regard, is very much better. Better communication, better connection between theory and practice, more clarity in explanations. Many europeans think, often unconsciously, the more obscure you are, the more profound. They also like idiosyncrasies and the ego_biased tendecy to the paternity of a theory, rather than its content. Such an idiocy.
    That is the reason why, in my opinion, Lacanian psychoanalysis has many followers in Europe, much less in America (at least as far as I know).


    Andrea


    Il mar 23 giu 2020 16:18 Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> ha scritto:
    Hi Andrea,
      Yes, I am familiar with her work. It is interesting and I tried to engage her in an exchange to see the overlap between our systems. She was a reviewer of the Periodic Table of Behavior paper. My take was that there were clear ways to line up our visions (although I did note to myself that there appeared to be a problematic dualism that you note). Anyway, she did not seem terribly interested in fostering a dialogue. She was not a fan of how I was connecting to behaviorism and she did not feel like I had done my homework on European theorists. At least that was my read. Joe M. was in on the exchange. He can pipe in if he sees it differently.

    Anyway, I think she has developed a cool system. I just don’t think it quite goes deep enough into the descriptive metaphysical issues of mind and matter to get quite the right lay of the land.

    Best,
    Gregg

    From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Andrea Zagaria
    Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 9:27 AM
    To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
    Subject: Transdisciplinary Philosophy of Science Paradigm


    Hi TOK list,

    As my target article about evolutionary psychology as a meta-theory continues to be commented on, I bumped into a comment by Jana Uher.

    She developed a unifying framework named TPS-P (Transdisciplinary Philosophy of Science Paradigm for  Research on Individuals) Here a link for a summary: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__researchonindividuals.org_&d=DwIGaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=YGuccZzkn0qLkSUCAncTLqzKu5XwGsrX2qjppaj5n4g&s=WY39gQW6XiGOzd__tg02ovyJkf0by8D-tN8IfPA2Uig&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__researchonindividuals.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=PteCbF0_3SxYaCXICP5v7TZuEkSegG4Wve5qaszPOs8&s=ue8DIMAoaBDPSljWFGn0PKlYnHPRyaMgoovlsVqv6rE&e=>

    I still have to study it properly, for now what I find not convincing is her characterization of psychical vs physical, with spatiality as a defining feature of physical and not of psychical. It seems, to my eyes, a classic dualistic cartesian distinction: RES COGITANS (mind) vs RES EXTENSA (matter). (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__researchonindividuals.org_tps-2Dparadigm-5Fmetatheoretical.htm&d=DwIGaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=YGuccZzkn0qLkSUCAncTLqzKu5XwGsrX2qjppaj5n4g&s=A59axibO0mD1QVPMK31iURu9cOw7bwXEIrpypXQ77UE&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__researchonindividuals.org_tps-2Dparadigm-5Fmetatheoretical.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=PteCbF0_3SxYaCXICP5v7TZuEkSegG4Wve5qaszPOs8&s=9GUmoJJG6dA4ncoz_j1cuSWAYHuPoJpN6zPUxFPGkQ4&e=>)



    As Gregg points out, thinking about the ultimate unit of physics as matter is now out-dated;  it is better to think of Energy-Matter-Information.



    Are you familiar with her work? Any thoughts about it?



    Andrea



    P.S. I found out this morning that also Mike (Mascolo) published a commentary on my article. I just looked over it, and still have to read it properly, but thanks Mike….
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