Gregg:
Thanks! As you know, what was really the "game-changer" -- in terms
of humans that we would recognize as such -- was *literacy* and not
"language." That didn't happen until c. 500BC.
This is the third-phase on Donald's schema and the "origin of
consciosness" in Jaynes's. It was the "Axial Age" (so-called by
Jaspers), from which the "Great Religions" and the civilizations based
on them arose -- generating the world in which we now live.
Obviously people can speculate as far back as they like but for what
purpose? If the task-at-hand is understanding the world we live in
today, what does it matter when you date early "language" . . . ??
Mark
Quoting "Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx" <[log in to unmask]>:
> Hi Mark and Tim,
>
> Yes, my approach overlaps with Donald's significantly. My
> "justification systems" are essentially his mythic culture period.
> Full symbolic language into the development of justification
> systems. Best guess is that full language is sometime between
> 150,000 and 75,000. By 50,000 years we see an explosion of artefacts
> suggestive of a mythology/justification system. Then technology
> shifts things more, with agriculture and again with writing
> (earliest ~5K) and philosophy 2500K ago and more recently science
> and digital processing.
>
> Exactly when language and its various forms developed is much
> debated and hard to know. Steve dropped off the list a few months
> back, so I am not sure what he says about that exactly. The idea
> that language could have been represent 500,000-600,000 k ago is
> possible, but not much in the way of very convincing data. Some
> stuff on the evolution of the throat and hyoid bone and other
> structures. The folks who look at the evolution of speech (as
> opposed to language) tend to go deeper in the evolutionary time than
> the evolution of language folks. (see,
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__web.archive.org_web_20070809073918_http-3A__www3.isrl.uiuc.edu_-7Ejunwang4_langev_localcopy_pdf_fitch00speech.pdf&d=DwIBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=u_p9FYYQva2cLiNs3hrX61Y3gjSjjMH56RqUbUtExKY&s=V239e__0Kj_JPCVjYsJOW_6VNRrYskgBKhEQUtT404k&e=).
>
> Here is a link to Steve's talk, which was on how hunter gatherers
> solve relational issues by fostering autonomy and community and
> regulating dominance.
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.gregghenriques.com_evolution-2Dwell-2Dbeing-2Dand-2Dhuman-2Dvalues.html&d=DwIBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=u_p9FYYQva2cLiNs3hrX61Y3gjSjjMH56RqUbUtExKY&s=moM74q2xpF-Ui0QowTviWTw6I82HGdXsoZTBqr_FiuI&e=
>
> Best,
> Gregg
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tree of knowledge system discussion
> <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Mark Stahlman
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 7:35 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Humans and Language
>
> Tim:
>
> The approach I take is (and I had thought) the *same* one taken by
> Gregg -- which is to say the one put forward by Merlin Donald. He is
> an evolutionary neuro-psychologist who is working with my Center.
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Merlin-5FDonald&d=DwIBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jtGEWYngeGkLHbpF05r9EOzFOXrDYqAZf6kwj_zoHrc&s=rb0Iuiu_vOCGc7Bu3aATEPwe70hZGrXfXmx27c-a6b4&e=
>
> His 1992 "Origins of the Modern Mind" -- which sharply distinguishes
> "mimetic" from "mythic" cultures -- is a further elaboration of the
> 1976 Julian Jaynes "Origins of Consciousness." I was also Jaynes'
> "last student."
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Origins-2DModern-2DMind-2DEvolution-2DCognition_dp_0674644840&d=DwIBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jtGEWYngeGkLHbpF05r9EOzFOXrDYqAZf6kwj_zoHrc&s=9ReDL2pIk9yhs1Xyp2AA5RSDruPmvgwox8sh9YqihjA&e=
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Origin-2DConsciousness-2DBreakdown-2DBicameral-2DMind_dp_0618057072&d=DwIBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jtGEWYngeGkLHbpF05r9EOzFOXrDYqAZf6kwj_zoHrc&s=Hauk9nsswBw-L3LLMnciM-smw6qtvEarRKDrKFAl5zM&e=
>
> No I wasn't at Gregg's conference and if someone else has a
> different view on this topic, which I've been studying for many
> years, I'd be happy to take a look if you can provide a reference .
> . . !!
>
> Mark
>
> Quoting Tim Henriques <[log in to unmask]>:
>
>> Hi Mark - I wanted to get clarification on the post you mentioned
>> below
>>
>> Homo Sapiens did *not* have anything like human language as a direct
>> result of its own biological evolution. From 200,000+ years ago until
>> some time much more recently -- perhaps only 10,000+ years ago --
>> humans most likely didn't have spoken language and written language is
>> only 2500 or-so years old.
>> Just to make sure I am reading that correctly, is the claim you are
>> making that we didn't have spoken language 200k years ago or more?
>>
>>
>> Did you happen to attend the ToK conference that Gregg held earlier
>> this year? There was interesting presentation on Hunter Gatherer
>> society as one of the main topics of a lecture, and in that
>> presentation the presenter (Steve Keefer I believe) made that case
>> that humans had reasonable working language at 600k years ago if my
>> memory serves correctly. I am not an expert on this topic myself and
>> so I can only relate the information presented. I imagine one of the
>> points of contention is "what constitutes language". It was a subject
>> I was interested in so I specifically asked about him about this and
>> his basic point was that the hunter gather community
>> could communicate quite well with each other and broader tribes.
>> From a justification point of view they could ask each other "why did
>> you do that" and then expect an answer. I asked him if that was more
>> of his 'pet theory' or if there was reasonable consensus on that and
>> he seemed to indicate the latter.
>>
>>
>> Does that information jive with your account of history or do you take
>> a different approach?
>>
>>
>> Tim Henriques
>> Director, NPTI VA/MD/DC
>> 703-531-0795
>> NPTI's Webpage
>>
>> Did you know I wrote a book about Powerlifting?
>>
>>
>> Refer a friend to NPTI and receive a FREE CEU Class of your choice
>> (including TRX and KB) if they sign up
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mark Stahlman <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: TOK-SOCIETY-L <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Tue, Sep 25, 2018 5:48 pm
>> Subject: Re: Stam's critique
>>
>> Gregg:
>>
>> As we've discussed, there is no simple "identity" between language and
>> humans.
>>
>> Homo Sapiens did *not* have anything like human language as a direct
>> result of its own biological evolution. From 200,000+ years ago until
>> some time much more recently -- perhaps only 10,000+ years ago --
>> humans most likely didn't have spoken language and written language is
>> only 2500 or-so years old.
>>
>> Yes -- Merlin Donald is probably the best source on all this . . . !!
>>
>> Mark
>
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