That is an area we disagree.
Language, not literacy, resulted in the problem of justification and the development of justification systems. That is the fourth dimension. Literacy was important, but not the real game changer in my view. Of course, literacy does lay the ground work for ever more emerging technologies and was central to our current phase shift. But, language was far more important.
As I think I mentioned to you on the phone, I don't buy Jayne's origin of consciousness narrative.
The tripartite model of human conscious, based on the JH, is far superior, more generalizable and more integrative.
Best,
Gregg
-----Original Message-----
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Mark Stahlman
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:34 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Humans and Language
Gregg:
Thanks! As you know, what was really the "game-changer" -- in terms of humans that we would recognize as such -- was *literacy* and not "language." That didn't happen until c. 500BC.
This is the third-phase on Donald's schema and the "origin of consciosness" in Jaynes's. It was the "Axial Age" (so-called by Jaspers), from which the "Great Religions" and the civilizations based on them arose -- generating the world in which we now live.
Obviously people can speculate as far back as they like but for what purpose? If the task-at-hand is understanding the world we live in today, what does it matter when you date early "language" . . . ??
Mark
Quoting "Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx" <[log in to unmask]>:
> Hi Mark and Tim,
>
> Yes, my approach overlaps with Donald's significantly. My
> "justification systems" are essentially his mythic culture period.
> Full symbolic language into the development of justification systems.
> Best guess is that full language is sometime between
> 150,000 and 75,000. By 50,000 years we see an explosion of artefacts
> suggestive of a mythology/justification system. Then technology shifts
> things more, with agriculture and again with writing (earliest ~5K)
> and philosophy 2500K ago and more recently science and digital
> processing.
>
> Exactly when language and its various forms developed is much debated
> and hard to know. Steve dropped off the list a few months back, so I
> am not sure what he says about that exactly. The idea that language
> could have been represent 500,000-600,000 k ago is possible, but not
> much in the way of very convincing data. Some stuff on the evolution
> of the throat and hyoid bone and other structures. The folks who look
> at the evolution of speech (as opposed to language) tend to go deeper
> in the evolutionary time than the evolution of language folks. (see,
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__web.archive.org_web_20070809073918_http-3A__www3.isrl.uiuc.edu_-7Ejunwang4_langev_localcopy_pdf_fitch00speech.pdf&d=DwIBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=u_p9FYYQva2cLiNs3hrX61Y3gjSjjMH56RqUbUtExKY&s=V239e__0Kj_JPCVjYsJOW_6VNRrYskgBKhEQUtT404k&e=).
>
> Here is a link to Steve's talk, which was on how hunter gatherers
> solve relational issues by fostering autonomy and community and
> regulating dominance.
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.gregghenrique
> s.com_evolution-2Dwell-2Dbeing-2Dand-2Dhuman-2Dvalues.html&d=DwIBaQ&c=
> eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6C
> fxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=u_p9FYYQva2cLiNs3hrX61Y3gjSjjMH56RqUbUtExKY&s=mo
> M74q2xpF-Ui0QowTviWTw6I82HGdXsoZTBqr_FiuI&e=
>
> Best,
> Gregg
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tree of knowledge system discussion
> <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Mark Stahlman
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 7:35 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Humans and Language
>
> Tim:
>
> The approach I take is (and I had thought) the *same* one taken by
> Gregg -- which is to say the one put forward by Merlin Donald. He is
> an evolutionary neuro-psychologist who is working with my Center.
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_
> wiki_Merlin-5FDonald&d=DwIBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBE
> mmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jtGEWYngeGkLHbpF
> 05r9EOzFOXrDYqAZf6kwj_zoHrc&s=rb0Iuiu_vOCGc7Bu3aATEPwe70hZGrXfXmx27c-a
> 6b4&e=
>
> His 1992 "Origins of the Modern Mind" -- which sharply distinguishes
> "mimetic" from "mythic" cultures -- is a further elaboration of the
> 1976 Julian Jaynes "Origins of Consciousness." I was also Jaynes'
> "last student."
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Or
> igins-2DModern-2DMind-2DEvolution-2DCognition_dp_0674644840&d=DwIBaQ&c
> =eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6
> Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jtGEWYngeGkLHbpF05r9EOzFOXrDYqAZf6kwj_zoHrc&s=9
> ReDL2pIk9yhs1Xyp2AA5RSDruPmvgwox8sh9YqihjA&e=
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Or
> igin-2DConsciousness-2DBreakdown-2DBicameral-2DMind_dp_0618057072&d=Dw
> IBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-U
> Opybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jtGEWYngeGkLHbpF05r9EOzFOXrDYqAZf6kwj_zoH
> rc&s=Hauk9nsswBw-L3LLMnciM-smw6qtvEarRKDrKFAl5zM&e=
>
> No I wasn't at Gregg's conference and if someone else has a different
> view on this topic, which I've been studying for many years, I'd be
> happy to take a look if you can provide a reference .
> . . !!
>
> Mark
>
> Quoting Tim Henriques <[log in to unmask]>:
>
>> Hi Mark - I wanted to get clarification on the post you mentioned
>> below
>>
>> Homo Sapiens did *not* have anything like human language as a direct
>> result of its own biological evolution. From 200,000+ years ago
>> until some time much more recently -- perhaps only 10,000+ years ago
>> -- humans most likely didn't have spoken language and written
>> language is only 2500 or-so years old.
>> Just to make sure I am reading that correctly, is the claim you are
>> making that we didn't have spoken language 200k years ago or more?
>>
>>
>> Did you happen to attend the ToK conference that Gregg held earlier
>> this year? There was interesting presentation on Hunter Gatherer
>> society as one of the main topics of a lecture, and in that
>> presentation the presenter (Steve Keefer I believe) made that case
>> that humans had reasonable working language at 600k years ago if my
>> memory serves correctly. I am not an expert on this topic myself and
>> so I can only relate the information presented. I imagine one of the
>> points of contention is "what constitutes language". It was a
>> subject I was interested in so I specifically asked about him about
>> this and his basic point was that the hunter gather community could
>> communicate quite well with each other and broader tribes.
>> From a justification point of view they could ask each other "why did
>> you do that" and then expect an answer. I asked him if that was more
>> of his 'pet theory' or if there was reasonable consensus on that and
>> he seemed to indicate the latter.
>>
>>
>> Does that information jive with your account of history or do you
>> take a different approach?
>>
>>
>> Tim Henriques
>> Director, NPTI VA/MD/DC
>> 703-531-0795
>> NPTI's Webpage
>>
>> Did you know I wrote a book about Powerlifting?
>>
>>
>> Refer a friend to NPTI and receive a FREE CEU Class of your choice
>> (including TRX and KB) if they sign up
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mark Stahlman <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: TOK-SOCIETY-L <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Tue, Sep 25, 2018 5:48 pm
>> Subject: Re: Stam's critique
>>
>> Gregg:
>>
>> As we've discussed, there is no simple "identity" between language
>> and humans.
>>
>> Homo Sapiens did *not* have anything like human language as a direct
>> result of its own biological evolution. From 200,000+ years ago
>> until some time much more recently -- perhaps only 10,000+ years ago
>> -- humans most likely didn't have spoken language and written
>> language is only 2500 or-so years old.
>>
>> Yes -- Merlin Donald is probably the best source on all this . . . !!
>>
>> Mark
>
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