Jamie:

We'll have to wait for Gregg to return to discuss his "Justification  
System" (and whether it is, in fact, "global," as has been raised by  
my questions about China) but I will agree with you that his choice of  
the term "justification" is an echo of the use of that term to mean  
*salvation* in the Protestant Reformation . . . !!

Have you ever had the chance to read the decrees of the 6th session of  
the Council of Trent on this topic . . . ??

ON JUSTIFICATION
FIRST DECREE

Celebrated on the thirteenth day of the month of January, 1547.

CHAPTER I.

On the Inability of Nature and of the Law to justify man.

The holy Synod declares first, that, for the correct and sound  
understanding of the doctrine of Justification, it is necessary that  
each one recognise and confess, that, whereas all men had lost their  
innocence in the prevarication of Adam-having become unclean, and, as  
the apostle says, by nature children of wrath, as (this Synod) has set  
forth in the decree on original sin,-they were so far the servants of  
sin, and under the power of the devil and of death, that not the  
Gentiles only by the force of nature, but not even the Jews by the  
very letter itself of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated, or  
to arise, therefrom; although free will, attenuated as it was in its  
powers, and bent down, was by no means extinguished in them . . .

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.thecounciloftrent.com_ch6.htm&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=JG_r0HEUubEE09b-3CPvQUeTEQV0JQiXCUXHr10kGaI&s=aH_efMzZk6IBIzBQc8O_Wn-k0CwHYBlpaiKQxmcSHxQ&e=

Which brings us to the topic of religion.  You have said a couple of  
things about this.  Recently you have said, "I've been around many  
religious people and one common feature of the religious mind is a  
disinterest in what's true according to reason and evidence."  And, in  
your "About Me" on your blog site, "At the age of eight, I became  
disturbed about the conflict between science and religion. I was  
disturbed from learning that the adults didn’t know what was true. I  
lost trust in what most people believe and began my own, independent  
search for comprehension."

What sorts of "religious people" have you been around and what have  
you been saying to them?  You might also be interested in how  
"science" (or "Just the facts, Ma'am!") was actually designed by  
people who wanted to eliminate everyday Christianity as an "anchor"  
and to replace it with a "justified world."  Sometimes they were  
called the "Illuminati" and sometimes the "Rosicrucians."  Unable to  
live in a "corrupt" world, they called themselves the  
"Perfectibilists."  Theology calls them *gnostics* . . . !!

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Perfectibilists-2DCentury-2DBavarian-2DOrder-2DIlluminati_dp_0977795381&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=JG_r0HEUubEE09b-3CPvQUeTEQV0JQiXCUXHr10kGaI&s=9yu981DZj20X-lFAGcMxk8WG1lA1uUfL4d1VphcdNCs&e=

Mark

P.S. I have had the chance to discuss Aristotle's *four* causes with  
Gregg a little but we will have to wait for his return to focus on  
this topic.  As a quick reminder, in the context of this discussion,  
perhaps this will help:

Efficient Cause: The primary concern of 17th-19th-century "science,"  
particularly when it is trying to accomplish engineering (i.e. making  
a better world.)  This was replaced with "probability" in the  
early-20th century (under a new "paradigm," as discussed on this  
list), leaving science utterly without any answer to the question  
"why?" (as also previously discussed on this list.)

Material Cause: This has become the study of "chaos" (and  
"self-organization" or "emergence") and graduated from astro-physics  
to nuclear bombs to what is now called "complexity science" (ala the  
Santa Fe Institute &al.) As best I can tell, this is *not* the same as  
"dimensions of complexity" in Gregg's system but he can clarify when  
he returns.

Final Cause: This is the topic of "end-times" (as in "culmination of  
history" or "judgment day") and the subject of the Bible's last  
chapter, "The Book of Revelation."  Modern biology has rejected any  
*teleology* for "evolution" and the social sciences never adopted such  
a scheme (indeed, now it seems to have even rejected the notion that  
Homo Sapiens is a "superior" species, and asks if, indeed, the whole  
idea of species isn't "anthropocentric.")  So, if the Christian  
version isn't what you want (or, its even more dramatic Islamic  
embellishment, in which Jesus comes back to convert all the Jews to  
Islam), then you're pretty much on your own to make-believe whatever  
you'd like.  Many have done exactly that.

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Islamic-5Feschatology&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=JG_r0HEUubEE09b-3CPvQUeTEQV0JQiXCUXHr10kGaI&s=-imEzhv_BM6kd93s9Fn4D-tOGlXOfEyagmxaDDAE3XQ&e=

Formal Cause: This was the focus of Marshall McLuhan and, now, the  
Center for the Study of Digital Life (which I run.)  Kevin Kelly made  
McLuhan the "Patron Saint" of Wired but never understood what he was  
saying (alas, Kevin is self-taught and "born-again.")  The "technium"  
is his version of *formal* cause (taken from McLuhan) but he turned it  
into the "Borg," which is always the risk in these sorts of things.   
Yes, "resistance is futile" (which returns us to "final cause," as  
typically happens for people of the "rose cross.")

Quoting Mathew Jamie Dunbaugh <[log in to unmask]>:

> One might wonder how the Moral Apex differs from Gregg's Global
> Justification System. If Gregg already emphasizes these components then I'd
> like to know because then what I call the Moral Apex is just his Global
> Justification System.
>
> The Moral Apex is composed of:
> 1) Unified Knowledge
> 2) Unified Ethics
> 3) Unified Purpose
> 4) All shared by an integrated population
>
> I argue that this is the only logical culmination of the trend towards
> integration and cooperation at increasingly large scales.
>
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