Gregg:
As always, thought provoking . . . !!
> But, here is the deal. Between 100 and 50 years ago a process was
> set in place that would give rise to a whole new dimension of
> complexity . . . Via computational technologies, we are giving rise
> to a whole new dimension of complexity.
My, my! It sounds like you're taking about "digital life." The fifth
*joint* (for all the ToKers) . . . <g>
When I first met Merlin Donald (c. 1995, giving a lecture about his
1991 "The Origins of the Modern Mind: Three Stages in the Evolution of
Culture and Cognition," which you have told me you have read and
extensively annotated), I asked him if there was a "fourth stage"? He
told me that he was working on it. When I lunch with him and his wife
in late-2016, that seems to still be his plan.
However, in his scheme, the "modern mind" -- with all the attributes
you list -- did *not* come about 75-100,000 years ago but *much* more
recently (contrary to what most others believe, since the implications
are far too powerful.) It was the invention of "literacy" (c. 2500BC)
to which he attributes his "third stage" (as you know.) This is only
important in terms of what it means for the "fourth stage" -- since
understanding how the previous ones were caused might give us some
clues about what we are going through now.
Donald is a "follower" of Julian Jaynes (for whom I was his "last"
student.) Merlin gave the keynote at the 2013 Jaynes conference,
which added to his various mentions of Jaynes in his works. What is
*not* known is that Merlin got his start with McLuhan, when he was a
Canadian high-school student. And, what is also not known is how
Jaynes wanted to publish another book which would have credited
McLuhan with the insights that clarified Jaynes' earlier work
(although, what is known is that McLuhan reviewed "Breakdown of the
Bicameral Mind.")
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.julianjaynes.org_jjsforum_viewtopic.php-3Ff-3D16-26t-3D530&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=lg6_aTieJxBpJTtpkOiBwIg3i-IQu3RT-4bO9Nd_iZ8&s=_x6u5Wk2g3BnuSUk8SyZL6uK1bUboT0DhHuEIURypos&e=
What is important about all this is that Jayne's "bicameral mind" is
Donald's "mythic mind" and they are *not* the same as our modern
mentality at all. This implies that what we think of "culture" now
(say as the object of sociology) has little in common with "mythic
culture." There is, to be sure, much confusion about this matter
today (by those like Harari) -- since, as many have documented,
ELECTRICITY *retrieved* the "mythic" (which, in turn, is the mechanism
behind memes), so we "deceive" ourselves that they are the "same."
They aren't.
Given that difference (and the others detailed by Merlin Donald), the
implications is that a "fifth joint" would produce a world
*fundamentally* different from ours -- in "mental" terms. An
"idealized" version of the way we "think" today (i.e. *electric*
consciousness, as in Joni Mitchell's "gotta get back to the Garden"
hippie anthem) just won't do it if what is happening is supposed to be
a "giving rise to a whole new dimension of complexity."
But, before we get to that, to ground the conversation, can we first
please have a basic discussion of what you mean by these "dimensions
of conplexity" (hopefully tied into those who use "information" and
"complexity" in different ways from you) . . . ??
Mark
P.S. "Language" is a technology. Spoken language and written language
are, in fact, two different technologies -- with fundamentally
different *effects* that they "formally" cause. Both Jaynes and
Donald understand this. Alas, most other commentators I have found do
not.
Quoting "Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx" <[log in to unmask]>:
> Ok, to move the conversation along, I developed a quick draft that
> gets at why the JH is a new, central piece of the puzzle, as it
> frames the shift in human consciousness and the emergence of large
> scale justification systems.
>
> With this puzzle piece in place, then we are ready to focus on the
> “fifth joint point” and the future of humanity.
>
> G
>
>
>
> From: tree of knowledge system discussion
> <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Frank Ambrosio
> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2018 10:13 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: re easy pieces
>
> Gregg,
>
> Just to be clear: I am all aboard for staying on topic here, the
> topic of which pieces are minimally necessary for an integrated view
> of what makes us different, both from other animals and AI. I am
> compressing the distinct question of the logic of that integration,
> for now, into the question of identifying the pieces.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Frank
>
>
> Francis J. Ambrosio, PhD
> Associate Professor of Philosophy
> Senior Fellow, Center for New Designs in Learning and Scholarship
> Georgetown University
> 202-687-7441
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 3:52 PM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx
> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> Mark and Frank,
>
> I think the concept of what constitutes a mental disorder is a
> fascinating and important question (although I hope we stay on the
> topic of human difference—perhaps this can be an asterisk for future
> exporation?). It was the focus of one of my first theory
> papers<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.gregghenriques.com_uploads_2_4_3_6_24368778_finalhd1.pdf&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=k4htm14sO0GrRKScsHwwHqJTeVTAkHCqFXa9yVlbR48&s=gKqegUk2vnzt0-Gh7YGEY85qgtvHKytPDzXf_W_IvHs&e=>, published prior to my unified theory work in 2002. The justification of mental disorder and disease is crucial to our identity. Szasz said some very important things. He also “over shot” in that, yes, people actually do go crazy. Their perceptual-affect systems breakdown and they hallucinate and their justification systems go haywire and they form delusions. A profound thought disorder is as evident of a broken mind as a heart attack. If someone grabbed their chest, screamed in pain and died, we would say something was wrong with them, even if we found no lesions in their
> heart.
>
> All that said, the majority of what we call mental illnesses, the
> neurotic conditions, are by and large problems in living and coping
> that lead to clinically significant levels of distress. They are
> mental-behavioral problems, not diseases in the traditional medicine
> sense. Some blogs on this issue:
> What is a Mental
> Disorder?<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__my.psychologytoday.com_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201201_what-2Dis-2Dmental-2Ddisorder&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=k4htm14sO0GrRKScsHwwHqJTeVTAkHCqFXa9yVlbR48&s=lowwMA9FHJ_VRGReIVo1WulxFkSSDugk5aURlPhwUg0&e=>
> Five Broad Models of Mental
> Illness<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__my.psychologytoday.com_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201206_five-2Dbroad-2Dmodels-2Dmental-2Dillness-2D1&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=k4htm14sO0GrRKScsHwwHqJTeVTAkHCqFXa9yVlbR48&s=Y7-TiYgGDBPAaJUiJH25gRplgdKF5EVf8Wxo3ZYVlZI&e=>
> Mental Disorders Vs
> Diseases<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__my.psychologytoday.com_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201305_mental-2Ddisorders-2Dvs-2Ddiseases&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=k4htm14sO0GrRKScsHwwHqJTeVTAkHCqFXa9yVlbR48&s=X8iIHyVuwaikdtfl8ALHLE7OLl03-x3MEafB9NfiUQQ&e=>
> This one is on Szasz:
> Is Psychiatry the Science of
> Lies?<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__my.psychologytoday.com_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201212_is-2Dpsychiatry-2Dthe-2Dscience-2Dlies&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=k4htm14sO0GrRKScsHwwHqJTeVTAkHCqFXa9yVlbR48&s=3NBiyjG_A-eppOGVPQiCyfE0nreUhtpsim6LAwCyYbM&e=>
>
> Best,
> Gregg
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tree of knowledge system discussion
> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On
> Behalf Of Mark Stahlman
> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2018 8:30 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: easy pieces
>
> Frank:
>
> Very interesting -- thanks . . . !!
>
> As you know, Ernest Becker was "mentored" by Thomas Szasz, an
> important figure in the "anti-psychiatry" movement of the 1960s.
>
> Just as we are now in another "counter-culture," Szasz was in the
> middle of his (along with some of the rest of us.) The last time
> this happened, RADIO psychology -- particularly the medical version
> -- came
> under attack by the *new* techno-paradigm TELEVISION types.
> Psychiatry lost.
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Thomas-5FSzasz&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=XAkYRpRyVB6UU9pFYHb8b9G4xQy0T81UTArZU-8mBDE&s=y5HRC2ZOx6lt3U-JNJCXfztJ-zUX7azmsaSvzsK4thE&e=
>
> His 1961 "The Myth of Mental Illness" and 1970 "The Manufacture of
> Madness" accompanied Michel Foucault's 1961 "History of Madness" &c.
> One of the components which fed all this was the use of LSD --
> beginning and becoming widespread in psychotherapy in the 1950s and
> then spread by the anti-psychiatrists in the 1960s, including after
> it became illegal -- which was viewed by some as "mimicking"
> psychosis, while others saw it as opening the "Doors of Perception."
> How's that for "counter" views (reminding us of the recent
> "Entropic Brain" post by Gregg) . . . !!
>
> Wikipedia notes --
>
> "Szasz argued throughout his career that mental illness is a
> metaphor for human problems in living, and that mental illnesses are
> not "illnesses" in the sense that physical illnesses are; and that
> except for a few identifiable brain diseases, there are "neither
> biological or chemical tests nor biopsy or necropsy findings for
> verifying DSM diagnoses."
>
> "Szasz maintained throughout his career that he was not
> anti-psychiatry but was rather anti-coercive psychiatry. He was a
> staunch opponent of civil commitment and involuntary psychiatric
> treatment but believed in, and practiced, psychiatry and
> psychotherapy between consenting adults."
>
> Yes, the closing of mental institutions was one of the results. As
> are at least some aspects of the increase in "mass killings" &c.
>
> In the summer of 1967 (aka "The Summer of Love," when I was in
> Haight-Ashbury looking for some LSD), the Tavistock Institute held a
> conference at what was probably the peak of this movement -- called
> the "Dialectics of Liberation Congress" (and published under the
> title "To Free a Generation") -- organized by David Cooper, their
> resident "anti-psychiatrist" (and a colleague of R.D. Laing, widely
> nominated to take over for Tim Leary, also a psychologist, as the
> LSD "guru.")
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Dialectics-5Fof-5FLiberation-5FCongress&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=XAkYRpRyVB6UU9pFYHb8b9G4xQy0T81UTArZU-8mBDE&s=4PDB5jFs232nZnFGRrkUQ4nEyaGOmGie8A_C7rRTwA0&e=
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Free-2DGeneration-2DDavid-2DCooper_dp_B000V2FMZA&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=XAkYRpRyVB6UU9pFYHb8b9G4xQy0T81UTArZU-8mBDE&s=Iz7r3gjr1MToZMRqRZJIMlml-eFd3p1pdOuxh3zghrc&e=
>
> "Emergent cosmic reality" and "cosmic information exchange dynamism"
> would likely have been phrases that would have been right at home
> there . . . <g>
>
> Mark
>
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