Waldemar:
Thank you. In fact, we really have no choice but to "utilize its
capabilities."
Mark
Quoting Waldemar Schmidt <[log in to unmask]>:
> Nancy:
>
> Thank you for your response.
>
> You and I seem to see “science” very similarly.
> Although, I do think there is also a lot of inductive reasoning in
> science research, as well.
> The LHC comes to mind in this regard.
>
> Your comments about consciousness are stimulating.
> Here, as well, I agree that understanding our species’ “mind”
> necessitates not just the conscious mind but the pre- and
> unconscious portions thereof as well.
>
> I wonder if you would care to expand your ideas about the mind, in
> particular the 4 “phases”.
> Do you see these phases as sequential and exclusive?
> That is, is only one phase operating at a particular moment - in
> those old enough to have more than one phase?
> Do you see them as functioning is series or parallel?
> And, what are the sorts of controlling factors?
> I ask because I see all 4 phases as being available for access in
> terms of conscious operation.
> And, that the earlier phases as being in operation continuously in
> the unconscious, and possibly in the pre-conscious.
>
> In terms of the formal abstract “mind” or thinking, would you agree
> that such work is necessary to determine the substance of an
> analysis of mind and consciousness?
> Out of such work one then may construct a “message” to be used to
> assist others to learn the insight gained.
> Further, it would be necessary to construct the manner in which the
> “message” is applied in a manner which is conducive to the different
> ways in which people learn.
> For instance, to be maximally effective with the largest number of
> people, one would use a method or methods conducive to dissemination
> in the digital world, as Mark calls it.
> It seems wise to do so, at least to me.
> The digital world may pose a diversity of problems for us, but we
> could utilize its capabilities.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Waldemar
>
> Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD
> (Perseveret et Percipiunt)
> 503.631.8044
>
> Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. (A Einstein)
>
>> On Nov 18, 2018, at 9:46 AM, Nancy Link <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> Waldemar, Martin, Mark and Gregg,
>>
>> Waldemar, Thank your bring us back to the question of what are we
>> really talking about. It keeps us from talking past each other.
>>
>> I would like to explain what I mean by science, consciousness and
>> mental processes and then contrast my understanding with the
>> comments made by others.
>>
>> Science for me is that kind of knowledge produced using the
>> scientific method. It relies heavily on deduction.
>>
>> Consciousness for me is William James’s description of
>> consciousness in The Principles of Psychology. Consciousness is a
>> flowing thing. It moves seamlessly from one thought to another or
>> to a feeling and then back to a thought. It is always moving. The
>> scientific method is ill suited to make inroads into the problem of
>> understanding this kind of material. On the other hand, the
>> clinical method is much better suited to gathering information on
>> consciousness because consciousness is what psychotherapists work
>> with. They listen to the conscious material that their patients
>> produce and wait for patterns to reoccur. A great deal of clinical
>> thought is based on the detection of repeating patterns. For
>> example, transference requires the detection of a repeating
>> pattern, one having occurred in a childhood relationship; the other
>> in an adulthood relationship. Disease classification also depends
>> upon the detection of repeating patterns.
>>
>> I believe that an integrated science of psychology will come into
>> being when the findings about human functioning deriving from both
>> methods are accounted for within a single explanatory framework.
>>
>> For me, consciousness, the mind and mental processes are all
>> interchangeable. In making these things interchangeable, I am not
>> ignoring Freud’s contribution to the understanding of the
>> unconsciousness or the preconscious mind.
>>
>> Briefly, in my model, I see the mind as having evolved through 4
>> periods during the course of evolution and these stages are
>> reiterated child development.
>> 1) The sensorimotor mind (found in babies, ages 4 months to 18
>> months) Using this mind, babies learn to organize their behaviour
>> in the pursuit of goals. This mind evolved during the period from
>> the stem mammals to the Old world monkeys
>> 2) The dimensional mind (found in toddlers and preschoolers !8
>> months to five years) Using this mind, children learn how to use
>> alliances to attain power. This mind evolved during the period
>> beginning with the apes and ending with early grade hominins.
>> 3) The narrative mind (school age children) Using this mind, child
>> learn how to tell stories, but more importantly they carry around
>> images of whole people inside their heads. This mind evolved during
>> the tenure of the mid-grade hominins.
>> 4) The formal abstract mind (adolescence, starting at 11 years.)
>> This mind is characterized by the ability to use abstract concepts
>> to organize thinking about tangible things. This mind evolved with
>> the late-grade hominins, including humans.
>>
>> The first two minds are organized through affect; the second two
>> minds are organized through language. We use each one of these
>> minds as we go about our daily activities. The latter two minds,
>> the ones organized by language, are more accessible to conscious
>> awareness than the minds organized through affect.
>>
>> Waldemar — For me, Freud’s preconscious and unconscious are more
>> likely to operate when we are using the first two minds. Sometimes
>> during childhood we learn to avoid paying attention to certain
>> affects as a means of controlling our own behaviour. This is my way
>> of accounting for the phenomenon of defences.
>>
>> Martin — Your bringing up the cognitive abilities of fish and
>> birds makes me think of an important difference between my
>> thinking and the thinking of almost every other psychologist that I
>> know. I believe that the ability to learn evolved within lineages.
>> If we want to understand how the mind of Homo sapiens evolved, we
>> should pay attention to the learning abilities that evolved within
>> our lineage. For me that means forgetting fish which split from our
>> lineage about 4 million years ago and forgetting birds, because
>> they are not on our lineage. They evolved from the reptiles.
>>
>> I find math daunting at the best of times. What I can say is that
>> as you were working out your math problem, you were using your
>> formal abstract mind. (Except for the part where you went to sleep
>> and woke up with an insight.) Counting systems are an abstraction
>> which overarches tangible things.
>>
>> Although I think that the learning abilities of fish are
>> impressive, I do not believe that they are capable of abstract
>> thought, as I define it. Words like symbolic thought and abstract
>> thought need careful attention to definition.
>>
>> Mark — As you so eloquently put it, there needs to be something new
>> added to what we are doing now to resolve the problem of
>> psychology. The question is what? We all draw upon our backgrounds
>> to try to answer that question. My background is clinical psychology.
>>
>> Gregg — I see most academics, including you, as overusing your
>> formal abstract mind at the expense of the other minds. (Certainly
>> all the reinforcements delivered in the university push in that
>> direction.) You are deeply intuitive and your theory is essentially
>> correct, but it is presented in conceptual boxes. For me, I have
>> trouble connecting the boxes to a narrative structure. For example,
>> in the Architecture of the Human Mind diagram, I notice that you
>> have added concepts like working memory, procedural memory,
>> semantic memory, episodic memory and long term memory. I agree
>> that these concepts are critical to understanding the human mind,
>> but how do they connect to other concepts? I am working on a
>> narrative structure that tries to connect least some of these
>> elements to others. For example, I am asking questions like: What
>> role does working memory play in the ability to learn? When does it
>> first appear in child development and when did it first appear in
>> evolution? What function did it serve, when it first appeared in
>> evolution? To me, it seems like answers to questions such as these
>> are necessary to build a coherent narrative structure.
>>
>> For me, mental processes are anything that occurs inside the head:
>> thoughts, sensations, perceptions, affective feelings, all
>> subjective experience. It does not matter whether these
>> experiences are attached to behaviour or not. I would be interested
>> in understanding your distinction between consciousness and mental
>> processes.
>>
>> With warm regards to all,
>>
>> Nancy
>>
>> From: tree of knowledge system discussion
>> <[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Waldemar
>> Schmidt <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> Reply-To: tree of knowledge system discussion
>> <[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> Date: Friday, November 16, 2018 at 4:20 PM
>> To: "[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>"
>> <[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> Subject: Re: blog on talking as a behavior or mental process
>>
>> Dear Friends:
>> What fascinating ideas about mental processes, mind, consciousness,
>> and science. No idling grey matter on this list serve!
>> But some of us, such as myself, are a little bit slower and need
>> some definitions. Sorry, that’s my reductionist training exerting
>> itself. Please understand that the following comments deal with
>> methods and means and not with person or persons.
>> For instance, how is “science” being used? Wiktionary defines “science” as:
>> science
>>
>> 1. A particular discipline or branch of learning, especially one
>> dealing with measurable or systematic principles rather than
>> intuition or natural ability. [from 14th
>>
>> 2. Specifically the natural sciences
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_natural-5Fscience&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=-cbYA2VU5t-3f-fdo-wtYkjJPY7e0zCK12DtMwoeFYA&e=>.
>>
>> 3. Knowledge
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_knowledge&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=coFevuvkx9ynHz2TeR37-tHYN-aS_-nSfaJkC4I1tOc&e=> gained through study <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_study&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=dCElDACihsn-ziUhviIyvvGE_0vImUsOQfWjqe2EJCQ&e=> or practice <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_practice&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=YseRT2bPwLNOfLTmnPkT76ZKrI-2YpuVuw5rZ9GJ87g&e=>; mastery of a particular discipline or area. [from 14th
>> c
>>
>> 4. The fact of knowing something; knowledge
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_knowledge&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=coFevuvkx9ynHz2TeR37-tHYN-aS_-nSfaJkC4I1tOc&e=> or understanding of a truth. [from 14th
>> c
>>
>> 5. The collective discipline of study or learning acquired
>> through the scientific method
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_scientific-5Fmethod&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=xd0rFmae1PGmS5A7VnXTXxNrH2DiU1wkS-P4hFJxKt8&e=>; the sum of knowledge gained from such methods and discipline. [from 18th
>> c
>>
>> 6. Knowledge derived from scientific disciplines, scientific
>> method, or any systematic effort.
>>
>> 7. The scientific community.
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_science&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=NJAJVA2QSXvHw1JRxksT1dOJ--2XXftNihTg3j4OCYw&s=iOQQoevamvE_mLaxOdeJyf_HQ2pkk3m-o5uBu2o3YvU&e=
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_science&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=IpmE1HgW6w1hw-06vvj96u1IYWhv91kiBYDAK8xQiSM&e=>
>>
>> How is it being used in this discussion? This is important in
>> terms of the Wittgensteinian word game, n’est pas? My conception
>> of “science” is that principally it is a discipline, a method, a
>> way of thinking, a filtration means for dealing with disparate
>> representations of reality which tends towards finding and
>> exploiting reproducible representations. That is, centered around
>> definition #1 above. But, more often than not, the word “science”
>> is used variably to mean, as it may be useful to a particular
>> contention with which it is associated, any or all of the other
>> definitions, just in case any one or more of them may affirm the
>> contention being made.
>> OK, in case that seems nit picking – wait, there’s more – as the TV
>> hucksters proclaim.
>> How are the words “mental processes,” “mind,” and “consciousness”
>> being used in this discussion? Again, I’ll refer to Wiktionary,
>> since that is easily accessible by all.
>> mental
>>
>> 1. Of or relating to the mind
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mind&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=PoGUxNpZJbGZ-MVP1YIEdZOe1qcqzvCDpe0PrPtBedI&e=> or an intellectual <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_intellect&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=bYKdSMH1aOkF_uCOZuJqWu5QwxOYXLxU8lkWjzN2lxc&e=>
>> process.
>>
>> 2. Insane
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_insane&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=w-rL22JHMDrosrPvUfy_OKkWu8Y6N1__0Z-wBoG62Ek&e=>, mad <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mad&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=F339WLuifNNXnAp2YjDVsbdI0iGGba4Eijl2eXMU66M&e=>, crazy
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_crazy&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=xXXthS8K4trxkP8nN6WWry8WtNPP0GuyZkho84SP7g4&e=>.
>>
>> 3. Enjoyable
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_enjoyable&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=56lUFKRHJRxuPv9iIPfOBu4xR2YXkyB6sOETWSvOY24&e=> or fun <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_fun&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=6pTCsnTso0nlbSz1gP3UUCCtQP7oBNOx5bFMjUpYbtE&e=>, especially in a frenetic
>> way.
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mental&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=NJAJVA2QSXvHw1JRxksT1dOJ--2XXftNihTg3j4OCYw&s=g-VQIBcqy615Sc44UxwnhPWA0KYPiDUN2kR5ZdbKOoQ&e=
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mental&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=iqHOvOiJdR_VJUtLLytfRJ5BcbdGMg0KX5zrOe7LO3k&e=>
>>
>>
>> mind
>>
>> 1. The ability for rational
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_rational&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=ZPzsIsx3m8-7rXNOlVXH91ekDFzgF6rIkZ9sgv-SgyM&e=> thought
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_thought&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=bpvxDKVGm-NW6yvgBp08Mrx3_dOPa3aVUR8H_1eJo4s&e=>.
>>
>> 2. The ability
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_ability&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=5uOhyMO8RdHEqcw7Osa3II3v7zvCZzMe8m5Vt5BM0t0&e=> to be aware <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_aware&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=sDFROvqrNWkh6iscOIijngg-hXmHCYPPrJwIhIGCy4s&e=> of
>> things.
>>
>> 3. The ability to remember things.
>>
>> 4. The ability to focus the thoughts.
>>
>> 5. Somebody that embodies certain mental qualities.
>>
>> 6. Judgment, opinion, or view.
>>
>> 7. Desire, inclination, or intention.
>>
>> 8. A healthy mental state.
>>
>> 9. The non-
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_non-2D&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=pHi0Yo0ewjQwnJKkN8yCcfoYCHXzgSatMycf921_Mcc&e=>material <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_material&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=oVH_9HPqzEhzgLtBiU5NzPLNpWlU_KbA8Wjd3y_8kUI&e=> substance <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_substance&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=HQkgE-nG29vmawdSdDDawNbSNtqeXHV4W0nvZ7qYGPQ&e=> or set of processes <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_process&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=oo9NDaIrDRA66AGcbV9pyx5Iu9AvcRQSscm1eD54jVY&e=> in which consciousness <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_consciousness&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=N5NQtfKssGCncmMohYMYoh4eLZiYLKVac8Xv_judpuE&e=>, perception <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_perception&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=8eWPtT49qOoUCY5KtueMUICo9o5kA1AAiiTcBh73xKE&e=>, affectivity <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_affectivity&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=de5v6fA2Z8-UlbndUhlNKsyhW8julFQ32j-7q2_l55o&e=>, judgement <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_judgement&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=nkBcPGGCHgahkQUH_L0IVFSmM4RBo84jQ8_c7xAyLYA&e=>, thinking <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_thinking&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=QdBT7r4EuwqqgdCSn4nc9ZhoM6rDwCvfkr9rgE3LaV0&e=>, and will <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_will&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=Z4IVrlCWPV6JKiLCV-9_EkrkMEIyoO10PWhBSH2ER0k&e=> are
>> based.
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mind&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=NJAJVA2QSXvHw1JRxksT1dOJ--2XXftNihTg3j4OCYw&s=f0Mikio7EyE-VUA-us-rutYz87BfObkrthYErqOtfeI&e=
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mind&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=PoGUxNpZJbGZ-MVP1YIEdZOe1qcqzvCDpe0PrPtBedI&e=>
>>
>>
>> conscious
>>
>> 1. Alert
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_alert&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=MYumFMIaAdY_gqkKoeY9Um_YSkfq0Yt5PxMMHwGbzdM&e=>, awake <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_awake&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=57ELSfPbxtID1-hlgR09tgTZnRCkDN9AC7gMmKaew4g&e=>; with one's mental <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mental&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=iqHOvOiJdR_VJUtLLytfRJ5BcbdGMg0KX5zrOe7LO3k&e=> faculties <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_faculty&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=12T0UQqJ0qw6RqPwvNL5m9z8p9IRn66uJW4a-Ooxw80&e=>
>> active.
>>
>> 2. Aware
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_aware&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=sDFROvqrNWkh6iscOIijngg-hXmHCYPPrJwIhIGCy4s&e=> of one's own existence; aware <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_aware&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=sDFROvqrNWkh6iscOIijngg-hXmHCYPPrJwIhIGCy4s&e=> of one's own awareness
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_awareness&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=KMF2BYFWGJg_fOYGIO4QvKmRUIfOwaDKlyA6hUzNZM8&e=>.
>>
>> 3. Aware
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_aware&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=sDFROvqrNWkh6iscOIijngg-hXmHCYPPrJwIhIGCy4s&e=> of, sensitive <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_sensitive&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=D19qfv16zyQXtzQs1g4J1zfFAvHWxrd2KHqXYKytIcY&e=> to; observing and noticing, or being strongly interested in or concerned
>> about.
>>
>> 4. Deliberate
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_deliberate&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=pBBA99rXxcnF9zE7xOog8mCsx10GOCGmgDU_BArcnww&e=>, intentional <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_intentional&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=1Ourwcl47YAqCHQJafvYX5gzSvM61tQaen-w2Q-9q10&e=>, done with awareness <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_awareness&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=KMF2BYFWGJg_fOYGIO4QvKmRUIfOwaDKlyA6hUzNZM8&e=> of what one is
>> doing.
>>
>> 5. Known
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_known&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=QvoQ3zsf733nRHgAP2YGMOamikEXaV0zS2Oip6ZrCDc&e=> or felt <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_felt&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=eyd6RpjI5N5uubDYl4p-8XMEQFOCbFSwMb9-wfAcz0s&e=> personally, internally by a
>> person.
>>
>> 6. Self-conscious
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_self-2Dconscious&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=JjHK3yuqMzxSBSxg4B7Xkg0DhmR0Lm2Ecy6fqQFLQ8w&e=>.
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_conscious&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=NJAJVA2QSXvHw1JRxksT1dOJ--2XXftNihTg3j4OCYw&s=d3Vh4dLtySRzvMApm1SZAj7nOZ9V4FbQ3S7bDtNDhjc&e=
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_conscious&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=5lnKZ_QChjktNnwS6jAPx3F3-tmimSGuL-8LFUx_ygA&e=>
>>
>> Clearly, “mental” as used in this discussion surely means the
>> application of definition #1 above. As such, I take it to be a
>> sophisticated way to state that “something is going on in the
>> "mind.” Is there a more specific way in which this word is being
>> used in this discussion?
>> “Mind,” on the other hand, appears to allude to a variety of
>> psychological functions, as well as affective, cognitive, and
>> conative states. This wide usage and reference leaves the word’s
>> meaning too vague in meaningful discussion. [Sorry, my reductionist
>> opinion, to my mind (pun intended).]
>> And, “consciousness” – how may we apprehend its use? The
>> definitions above seem uniformly confined to understanding this
>> state in a singular way – as does “mind, by the way. That is,
>> implicit is the perception of reference to the conscious state – as
>> opposed to either the pre-conscious or the unconscious state.
>> Which leads me to suggest the following:
>>
>> <cid:2687304F-D239-4B9E-9F17-29FAA415053C@clearcreek.coop>PastedGraphic-3.tiff
>> (Apologies, as needed, to
>> Gregg’s more instructive Human Mind Diagrams)
>>
>> In this representation, the “mind” includes all three levels of
>> activity – the conscious, the pre-conscious, and the unconscious,
>> as well as the sympathetic nervous system, the endocrine system,
>> and the body in general. But, more commonly, when we refer to the
>> “mind” we imply CNS mental activity of which we are consciously
>> aware. Whereas, in terms of consciousness we are only aware of the
>> “conscious mind” component and partially/intermittently aware of
>> the “pre-conscious” component while, by definition, being unaware
>> of the “unconscious mind” component and processes therein. On the
>> other hand, “mental processes” occur in the “mind” at all levels,
>> while “consciousness” refers predominantly to our awareness of
>> mental processes at the “conscious mind” level. With extended
>> effort, consciousness is able to access some of the mental
>> processes at the “preconscious mind” level. With greater effort,
>> and some professional help, we might access some of the mental
>> processes at the “unconscious mind” level.
>> An example is provided by Martin’s email about his mathematics
>> deliberations. As he writes, it was when he awoke that he
>> experienced further insight to his maths problem – after
>> consideration of Gregg and Linda’s comments. This suggests (to me
>> the reductionist) that his non-consciousness “unconscious mind”
>> mental processes were at work assisting his consciouness “conscious
>> mind” to evolve a resolution.
>> Sometimes it seems to me that humanities-type writing includes
>> dependence upon unstated assumptions and an unclearly defined use
>> of words. It might be prudent to consider such as to do so may not
>> be in the best interests of The TOK Society’s efforts.
>> Just in case Wittgenstein is right!
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Waldemar
>>
>> Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD
>> (Perseveret et Percipiunt)
>> 503.631.8044
>>
>> Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. (A Einstein)
>>
>>> On Nov 16, 2018, at 6:49 AM, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx
>>> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks, Nancy.
>>>
>>> To me, this is a great topic for our list. I would be curious to
>>> hear your thoughts on how you define/characterize mental processes
>>> and consciousness.
>>>
>>> I encourage others to chime in also.
>>>
>>> I am in the thick of my next book, The Problem of Psychology and
>>> Its Solution. It argues directly that modern empirical/textbook
>>> psychology is anchored to methodological behaviorism, where
>>> behavior is what we measure and mind is the cause or force or
>>> whatever that is inferred. Via the UTUA language game, I am
>>> delineating a new way to define these concepts. I will say here
>>> that the three concepts are very different in the UTUA system.
>>> Mental processes are not synonymous with consciousness in my
>>> language game. Indeed, I see it as crucial that the two are
>>> separated.
>>>
>>> Warm regards,
>>> Gregg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: tree of knowledge system discussion
>>> <[log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Nancy Link
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 3:34 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>> Subject: Re: blog on talking as a behavior or mental process
>>>
>>> Hi Gregg,
>>>
>>> I agree completely with what you have said in this blog.
>>>
>>> I think that the study of mental processes (consciousness)
>>> continues to be seriously disadvantaged because the way that
>>> psychology was initially set up.
>>>
>>> To the extent that it is seriously studied, it is studied by the
>>> psychotherapists who work with the material of consciousness.
>>>
>>> Nancy
>>>
>>> From: tree of knowledge system discussion
>>> <[log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Gregg
>>> Henriques <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>> Reply-To: tree of knowledge system discussion
>>> <[log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>> Date: Thursday, November 15, 2018 at 10:43 AM
>>> To: "[log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>"
>>> <[log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>> Subject: blog on talking as a behavior or mental process
>>>
>>> Hi List,
>>> Hope this finds everyone well. I had an exchange yesterday with
>>> Steve Quackenbush on the deep problems with modern empirical
>>> psychology, and it prompted the following short
>>> blog:https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201811_is-2Dtalking-2Dbehavior-2Dor-2Dmental-2Dprocess&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=NJAJVA2QSXvHw1JRxksT1dOJ--2XXftNihTg3j4OCYw&s=6HjZu5UiDbb7uwaZxPEm7n_RlpQ55WgKSZquVtjVxlQ&e=
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201811_is-2Dtalking-2Dbehavior-2Dor-2Dmental-2Dprocess&d=DwMFAg&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=OniJrklPJVN62FIay4fbiT4SnefsFPZ6AWAHxi0gG_8&s=Eg23DNnrxK_LcrlLt3OuNNNgFwr_sWrbxVSSQw2KNjg&e=>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Gregg
>>> ############################
>>> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
>>> mailto:[log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:mailto:[log in to unmask]> or
>>> click the following link:
>>> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
>>> <http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1>
>>> ############################
>>> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
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>>> <mailto:mailto:[log in to unmask]> or
>>> click the following link:
>>> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
>>> <http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1>############################
>>> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
>>> mailto:[log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:mailto:[log in to unmask]> or
>>> click the following link:
>>> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
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