John:

So, if "life must circumvent the 2nd Law (i.e. MATTER)" (which, of  
course, sounds like a nice "just so story," since there is no way to  
"prove" that life has the *same* "dimension of complexity" as a gas or  
an ice-cube -- indeed, that is what we are here to discuss, thus not  
"circumventing" but rather operating based on different principles),  
then might it not follow that MIND "must circumvent LIFE" and that  
CULTURE "must circumvent MIND" (leading us back to the ToK stack) . .  
. ??

Mark

P.S. Marshall McLuhan, who was an English literature professor, often  
said, borrowing the phrase from Ezra Pound, "the artist is the antenna  
of the race."  So, in that respect, what has the artist to express if  
not the "truth" (at the *cultural* level in that stack) . . . <g>

Quoting JOHN TORDAY <[log in to unmask]>:

> Dear Corinne, thank you for the artwork. I am reminded of Robert Frost's
> poem The Secret Sits:
>
> "We dance round in a ring and suppose,
>
> but the secret sits in the middle and knows."
>
>
> or his notebook comment that "Life is that which can mix oil and water"
>
>
>
> With all due respect, as a lover of art, and the father of an artist, I am
> sympathetic to the effort
>
> of the artist to express 'truth', but it only buoys us so that we can
> deceive ourselves into
>
> thinking that we understand our reality. Ultimately, IMHO, we must
> understand the big
>
> question as to why we are mortal in scientific terms or we will continue to
> live with the stigma
>
> of death as a thing apart, when in reality it is the pact we make with
> Nature that allows us to
>
> live! and I am not speaking in metaphors, but in point of fact. If you read
> our book (attached)
>
> we explain why we are mortal, because life must circumvent the 2nd Law of
> Thermodynamics....John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 9:10 AM, Diop, Corinne Joan Martin - diopcj <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Just sharing some of my artwork that relates a bit :)
>>
>>  "Sizing the Infinite, Seeking Eternity," about Georg Cantor was done in
>> collaboration with E. Theta Brown, Associate Professor of Math
>>
>> Cover and pp. 11 – 16. (Photographs and essay.)
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__kapsula.ca_releases_KAPSULA-5FGOODMEASURE-5F3of3.pdf&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Vr8u6PMe1fx2OR_yRh5cx6dUZ_KYfc__V4tTWwzzzYw&s=zV1fH7W6QjfvEjo2qX_xpbvds0l9uPOsDIHtnmMSC4o&e=
>>
>>
>> Corinne
>>
>> PS I have artwork about Gregg's ideas from some years ago that got buried
>> somewhere in my studio after a move-- when I unearth it I will share!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Corinne Diop
>> Professor of Art
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.facebook.com_corinne.diop.studio_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Vr8u6PMe1fx2OR_yRh5cx6dUZ_KYfc__V4tTWwzzzYw&s=r5uHkXkpM7pToWu-OF47-mVq9Z35rJ1unMen2H1yLww&e=
>>
>> Photography Area Head
>> http://www.jmu.edu/artandarthistory/programs/Photography.shtml
>>
>> School of Art, Design, and Art History
>> MSC 7101/ 820 S. Main St
>> James Madison University
>> Harrisonburg, VA  22807
>> [log in to unmask]
>> (540) 568-6485
>>
>>        *************
>> JMU Safe Zone Member
>> http://www.jmu.edu/safezone
>> ________________________________________
>> From: tree of knowledge system discussion [[log in to unmask]]
>> on behalf of Mark Stahlman [[log in to unmask]]
>> Sent: Monday, July 9, 2018 10:13 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: New Paradigms
>>
>> John/Joe/Gregg &al:
>>
>> What Gregg has done here may be the *first* time this has ever been
>> accomplished (or perhaps even attempted).  While many have "philosophized"
>> over all this, Gregg has actually assembled a group of experts (which
>> decades of detailed knowledge as well as experience arguing with their
>> domain-expert colleagues.)  Hurray . . . !!
>>
>> Tree of Knowledge Stack
>>
>> Culture :: Sociology (Joe)
>> Mind :: Psychology (Gregg)
>> Life :: Biology (John)
>> Matter :: Physics (???)
>>
>> Does the "lower" define the "upper" or are there new *principles* that
>> must be added at each level (or what Gregg calls "dimensions of
>> complexity") . . . ??
>>
>> In the 19th-century, during what was a very different paradigm from the
>> one in which we live Bernhard Reimann suggested what some call the
>> "hypothesis of the higher hypothesis" and Georg Cantor generated his
>> Transfinite schema in attempts to *rigorously* tackle this conundrum.  Both
>> of them have largely been forgotten today and this was replaced with the
>> notion of a "Theory of Everything" (ToE) and "Unity of Science" (as per
>> Carnap &al) in the 20th-century -- as a result of the new paradigm in which
>> those scientists lived (but not the same one as ours).
>>
>> "Quantum" physics caught many people's attention and, for a while, seemed
>> to be the answer -- but then it failed to produce a ToE and dissolved into
>> a group of rival splinters until it was revived by some "hippies" who were
>> living under yet-another paradigm (yes, as it turns out, I know Jack
>> Sarfatti and he is an entertaining sorta guy, whose ideas were enhanced by
>> both some LSD and some "conspiracies" that he imagines he was a part of) .
>> . . <g>
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_How-2DHippies-2DSaved-2DPhysics-2D&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Vr8u6PMe1fx2OR_yRh5cx6dUZ_KYfc__V4tTWwzzzYw&s=_G5kJVAG-QJfikLSDTYAsmFhPsQnChBqFUEU3VpIW_4&e=
>> Counterculture/dp/039334231X
>>
>> So much for physics -- but wait there is more!  The US *military* decided
>> it wanted to take some Los Alamos bomb-desingers and shuffle them
>> across-the-street to a new place that was called the Santa Fe Institute, to
>> see if the physics of nuclear weapons (i.e. mini-stars) could be applied to
>> society.  The Department of Energy (which owns the US arsenal, not the
>> service branches) initially funded them 100% (and now it's 30% with another
>> 30% coming from Pierre Omidyar).
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.santafe.edu_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Vr8u6PMe1fx2OR_yRh5cx6dUZ_KYfc__V4tTWwzzzYw&s=8oJ3saFiRbwNqQ89evJbLCNu0uaJgNNzuDtdzZHI8YE&e=
>>
>> The result was "complexity science" -- re-branding "chaos," since that
>> frightens the children -- and its elaborate models of "emergence."  Some of
>> us from the Center spent last Spring with these folks (in particular, Jim
>> Rutt, long-time chairman and now trustee at Santa Fe) and I can tell you
>> they don't have a clue (and are unlikely to ever get one.)
>>
>> So, Physics as failed (multiple times).  How about Biology or Psychology
>> or Sociology?  As John tells us, biology is broken.  As, Gregg tells us,
>> psychology is broken.  As Joe tells us, sociology is broken.  So, what are
>> we going to do . . . ??
>>
>> My suggestion is that we take a look at *paradigms* behind these
>> approaches and their causes/effects.  This is the study of the "structure
>> of scientific revolutions" (as per Thomas Kuhn, although he never explained
>> either the causes or effects) and, to accomplish that task, we will need
>> Marshall McLuhan -- which we will do when Gregg returns.
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Structure-2DScientific-2DRevolutions-2D50th-2DAnniversary_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Vr8u6PMe1fx2OR_yRh5cx6dUZ_KYfc__V4tTWwzzzYw&s=BmcCFxcSZmnQGERsI2iYivYxAspghfBJSqRk8pi9m4M&e=
>> dp/0226458121
>>
>> To do this, we will have to do something that has been "forgotten" for
>> 400+ years -- understand *formal* cause.  Fortunately, Aristotle is there
>> to help us (since he's the one who came up with this idea in the first
>> place, 2500 years ago) and, even more fortuitously, we are now in a new
>> paradigm (otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation).
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> P.S. The previous paradigm was characterized by "globalism" and what was
>> called the "new world order" (i.e. the one that Kuhn was plumping for, as
>> funded by the Ford Foundation) and it has now collapsed.  Yes, this is what
>> keeps Henry Kissinger awake at night.  This is why Trump was elected,
>> Briexit occured and the 5 Star Movement now runs Italy &c.  This is also
>> why we are now in another "counter-culture" (parallel to the 60s), since
>> that's what happens to *culture* when paradigms shift (over-and-over,
>> making its explanation a top priority for a "pure" sociology).  This is the
>> focus of my Center (and,, yes, I also know John Ralston Saul).
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Collapse-2DGlobalism-2DJ-2DR-2DSaul_dp_1786494485&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Vr8u6PMe1fx2OR_yRh5cx6dUZ_KYfc__V4tTWwzzzYw&s=TxCqUM6YSv1i0MrpiF90ELFm3sF-oQdg_ffy-uIcoIU&e=
>>
>> P.P.S.  The "cheerio conspiracy" in all this is that the *center* of
>> maintaining that now obsolete paradigm was the Government Communications
>> Head-Quarters (GCHQ) which is the foundation of what some now call the
>> "Deep State."  Edward Snowden had a lot to say about them in terms of their
>> acronym, "Five Eyes," making Trump's upcoming meeting with the Queen very
>> interesting -- since the "Deep State" actually reports to her (yes, making
>> Canada an actual national security threat) . . . !!
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Five-5FEyes&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Vr8u6PMe1fx2OR_yRh5cx6dUZ_KYfc__V4tTWwzzzYw&s=NQf8b7I3KNNTkwBjzPWJ10IYGtMnT1wPXQ-os3-RveU&e=
>>
>> P.P.P.S. Since our confusion about all this has been going on for a
>> long-time, we will have to "drop back" and try to recover what previous
>> paradigms -- such as the "Enlightenment" &c -- have destroyed.  That is the
>> origin of the "motto" on the Center website that "Digital *retrieves* the
>> Medieval" and, from ISIS reviving *medieval* Jihad, to the Chinese reviving
>> the *medieval* "Silk Road," it is already the world in which we live.  As
>> Marty McKly put it, "Doc, it's time to go back to the future" . . . <g>
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Back-5Fto-5Fthe-5FFuture&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Vr8u6PMe1fx2OR_yRh5cx6dUZ_KYfc__V4tTWwzzzYw&s=leB9ckKSAnzS8KhtNTQh8ITRIEW2oInt3p4BIdJVh-U&e=
>>
>> P.P.P.P.S. What we have to try to avoid, as difficult as it may be, is to
>> not behave "like a drunk looking for our carkeys underneath the streetlamp,
>> because that's where the light is."  The recently past paradigms have
>> seriously screwed us up.  This is why we are in such terrible condition --
>> which, btw, is not the situation in China, where its historic civilization
>> is now the focus of study at the Central Party School (where CPC cadre are
>> trained in Beijing) -- and *all* of our attempts at "coherence" have
>> failed.  But, we're in luck, Aristotle is there to help us (which is why
>> Summer School at the Center is teaching his 4th-century BC "On the Soul".)
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Soul-2DMemory-2DRecollection-2DAristotle_dp_1888009179&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Vr8u6PMe1fx2OR_yRh5cx6dUZ_KYfc__V4tTWwzzzYw&s=RLK3eBi9dXrYBXSJ6-jxYWHG21kbeHFUWwmzJ0pY5zQ&e=
>>
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