Fascinating, Corinne. Thanks for sharing this. It might be fun to have a dialogos about this at some point 😊. I am not wedded to this as these concepts. And, yes, you are correct that the traditional framing that connects to rhetoric was logos, ethos, pathos in the triangle and the poetic mythos in relation. If I was going to align it with that frame, then yes, I think you are correct. 

I was following Bard, who has connections into many other traditions outside the Western cannon, and he acknowledge framing these concepts in slightly different way, which I did find appealing (indeed, I had never thought to apply them to UTOK prior to his articulation). For him, it was logos was about the logic and light of day. We also were linking it up with Wilber's Integral and the pronoun "It" and the concern about factual, objective truth. Then, mythos was the "mytho-poetic" narrative of the tribe at dusk. This was essentially the socially constructed narratives that frame the collective identity. Of course, this blends into "ought" and "ethos". This corresponds with Integral pronounal thinking as the "we". Then he argued pathos was the tribe at night (and, for him, only for adults and involves the tribe's "dark pathic" drives towards sex and concerns in relationship to chaos and death). This was the pronoun "I". I had a slightly different take on pathos, whereby for me, I wanted this to represent phenomenology and perspectival subjectivity. So, we split a bit here. 

Here is what I can say with confidence in the Tree, Garden, Coin alignment: The Tree of Knowledge System is about the scientific objective language game. It is trying to bring an objectivist understanding of what Daniel Schmactenberger called "base reality" in one of the Stoa series. The Garden is about the intersubjective blending of is and ought. It is about generating a more holistic philosophy of living for the tribe-to-globe. As such, clearly it overlaps both with mythos and ethos. Finally, the iQuad Coin is about the individual human subjective experience of being and the connection both to "it" and "we". That is, the Tree clearly aligns with the Objective It, the Garden aligns with the Intersubjective We, and the Coin the Subjective I. And the overall message is we need an ethical philosophy of living that effectively interconnects the it, we, and I and situates us in time and nature.  

Best,
Gregg   





-----Original Message-----
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Diop, Corinne - diopcj
Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2021 7:56 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: TOK David Lynch on Transcendental Meditation


I have recently been looking at these terms for the first time for an Art & Creativity class I am teaching, and have found that Logos, Ethos and Pathos are usually in a triangle and the point is to seek a balance of them. Mythos is the surrounding story or "fable" that comes from Poetics rather than Rhetoric. 

So, this may be a totally irrelevant outsider question, but just in case it is useful in any way-- I am wondering why it isn't:

"The Logos of the Tree, the Ethos of the Garden, and the Pathos of the Coin” that frames a developing Wisdom Mythos


(This creates an interesting shift on where the authority is coming from-- the garden.)


________________________________________
From: tree of knowledge system discussion [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx
Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2021 6:30 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: TOK David Lynch on Transcendental Meditation

Nik,

I will check this Lynch video out. It would be wonderful to start to systematically explore the practical side and principles of living that stem from or are framed by UTOK. If I had to give it one line, I would say the project is about the cultivation of knowledge-into-wisdom energy.

I certainly see much overlap with the kind of lifestyle and mindset that Integral Life speaks to with wake up, grow up, clean up, and show up. As you know, my intellectual energy has been focused on the metatheoretical and metaphysical solution to the problem of psychological science-into-therapy. Part of the journey has been my own soulful and spiritual religion-that-is-not-a-religion in the form of the evolution of the Tree of Knowledge into the Garden into the iQuad coin. I love the thought of developing this further. Indeed, this is very much how I think about the conversations you, Andrea and I are having.

Maybe we could explore the Tree, Garden, Coin Philosophy in terms of “The Logos of the Tree, the Mythos of the Garden, and the Pathos of the Coin” that frames a developing Wisdom Ethos:

[cid:image002.png@01D72C40.A87CA8B0]
I should note that the framing of the different kinds of rhetoric was influenced by Alexander Bard’s vision (although he and I conceptualize pathos slightly differently). When I saw his framing on these concepts, I quickly saw that the Tree, Garden and Coin align with the logos of It, the mythos of We and the pathos of I.

Will have watched the video and share reflections by our meeting on Saturday.

Big love (to use Bard’s signature line 😊),
Gregg

From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Nicholas Lattanzio
Sent: Wednesday, April 7, 2021 5:37 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: TOK David Lynch on Transcendental Meditation

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of JMU. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
________________________________
https://youtu.be/Em3XplqnoF4<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__youtu.be_Em3XplqnoF4&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=f7wvbXfeGVVZlIZKRH0JNSZ5bSU3XUfPmtlclDWuEr8&s=2frslzSroJ_RBmMqHNbYPtyhYWHuTcoX1pDJMkTcdwM&e=>

I thought some folks might be interested in this excerpt from David Lynch's documentary on transcendental meditation. IMO it very strongly represents the use of UTOK as a "personal technology" for transcendence/-actualization.

Lynch presents a very basic ontological description of reality from a nondual perspective, something that I and other TOK members such as Rob Scott have advocated for, but I am not so interested in that part of this video as I am in seeing how, if at all, this description of clean up, show up, grow up, wake up (as in Integral Theory) corresponds to the aspects of UTOK's iquad coin and "entering the garden." I would also be interested in comments on other peoples views on what we need to be doing at an individual level to facilitate large-scale adaptive and prosocial change.

I have practiced TM, although my peak experiences have almost exclusively arisen through self-inquiry, so I am also wondering about peoples peak experiences or just powerful moments that have arisen from the self-cultivation of a routine practice, "spiritual" or otherwise.

Hoping this can generate some constructive discussions for practicing what we preach.

Regards,

Nicholas G. Lattanzio, Psy.D.
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