If I'm understanding what they're getting at, I think they might want to
take the 'idea' model back to base and then on a future mission re-deploy
it onto the table face-up for maximum points.  I think that would be a
legal way to do it.  Not sure if the time/effort required to pull that off
is worth it, but that's for the kids to decide :)

-Frank


On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 9:29 AM, Darlene Pantaleo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Steve, I want to add here that while the idea can be moved to base, it
> cannot be stored or flipped if they want the points for removing it. The
> light bulb must be showing at the end of the match.
>
> In essence, is it a good idea to move it to base where it could
> conceivably be in the robot's way?
>
> Darlene
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 29, 2014, at 8:49 AM, VA-DC Referee Advisor <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> To tell the truth, I wasn't planning to watch the video until this
> weekend. Why?  Because it's only some highlights of the missions, and
> doesn't have the details of the game that teams will need to know.  Robot
> Bill noted the reference to that in the rules.
>
> The FLL Robot Game is like other games--there are things that your team is
> allowed to do, that may have consequences that your team doesn't like.  For
> example, when playing soccer (in real life!), a team *can* kick the ball
> out of bounds, but they may not *want* to kick the ball out of bounds,
> because then the other team gets to control the ball.
>
> In this year's Robot Game, your robot *can* bring the box to Base.  That
> is allowed; there is no rule against it.  Your team probably doesn't *want*
> to bring the box to Base, because then they won't get any points for the
> Thinking Outside the Box mission.
>
> So let's take a look at the details of the team's question.
> - In the Missions document, the mission description talks about two
> objects-- the "box model" and the "idea model".
>
> - The Field Setup document talks about the "box" and the "slab".  This
> could be confusing, but we use the picture in the mission description to
> recognize that the "idea model" is the "slab" that has the "light bulb"
> image on it.
>
> - The mission text describes the "box model" and the "idea model" as two
> separate, independent objects, even though the Field Setup has one of them
> start inside the other.
>
> - The mission text has the constraint that the "box model" must never be
> in Base, in order to get points for the mission.
>
> Does this constraint also mean that the "ideal model" has to stay out of
> Base to earn points for the mission?
>   -  Rule 2:  There are no hidden requirements or restrictions. If you’ve
> read everything, then you know everything.
>   -  Rule 2:  Robot game text means exactly and only what it says, so take
> it literally whenever possible.
>   -  So, since the mission only says "box model", then it only means "box
> model" and the constraint doesn't apply to the "idea model".
>
>   The team asked if they could bring the "idea model" to Base.  Yes, that
> is allowed by the Rules.  Are there any consequences that they don't like?
> Not for the Thinking Outside the Box mission.  If the "idea model" is in
> Base during the match, and the "box model" is never in Base during the
> match, then the team can earn the points for that mission.
>
>
>    Everyone will see in our future discussions that we'll look at what
> happens to individual objects separately (especially see Rule 27, "In"),
> and that is the distinction that we are making here.
>
> Steve Scherr
> VA-DC FLL Referee Advisor
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 6:52 AM, Parvathy Krishnan <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>> I thought the video said you cannot bring the box to the base. Am I
>> mistaken?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Aug 29, 2014, at 12:49 AM, VA-DC Referee Advisor <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> This is a great question to kick of the World Class season!  It gives a
>> chance to demonstrate how to use the Robot Game materials.
>>
>> The first thing to know is that the rules and the game change from year
>> to year.  If something was true in a past season, that should only give
>> your team a hint to look for it in this year's game....!
>>
>> In the World Class Rules, Information category, Rule 5,
>> Precedence/Authority tells us that:
>>
>> You get information about the robot game from more than one place. Once
>> in a while,there is conflict...
>> So here is the order of precedence for the sources:
>> 1 = CURRENT Robot Game Updates, 2 = Missions and Field Setup, 3 = Rules
>> ...
>> When there is conflict between pictures/videos and text, the text takes
>> precedence!
>>
>>
>> So, I will always try to cite the text from the Updates, Missions, Field
>> Setup, and Rules when I discuss a question about the Robot Game.
>>
>> In the Philosophy category, Rule 2, Interpretation really gets to the
>> heart of the question:
>> Robot game text means exactly and only what it says, so take it literally
>> whenever possible.
>> - If a detail isn’t mentioned, then it doesn’t matter.
>> - There are no hidden requirements or restrictions. If you’ve read
>> everything, then you know everything.
>> ...and....
>> --You’re encouraged to think this way - Please learn the requirements and
>> constraints very well, and then realize the many FREEDOMS that are left.
>>
>>
>> Do make sure that your team reads the examples in Rule 2 and discusses
>> them.  It's what makes the Robot Game so much fun--understanding an obeying
>> the constraints and figuring out something crazy that does a great job
>> anyway!
>>
>> So, yes, if there is nothing special written about the idea model, then
>> the team may do anything with it within the rules.  The required method for
>> the Thinking Outside the Box mission is that "The box model was never in
>> Base."  As the team recognized, this constraint does not say anything about
>> the idea model.  So, if there's nothing else in the game that limits where
>> or how the idea model may be moved, then the robot may move that model
>> anywhere, in any allowable way.
>>
>> Steve Scherr
>> VA-DC FLL Referee Advisor
>>
>> P.S. for everyone--See the Critical Warning at the end of the Rules.
>> Every team wants to have at least one member who is an expert on the game
>> documents, and the best teams challenge each other to think of ideas and
>> decide whether they are allowable, and, if not, how to tweak them so that
>> they are.  (But only to use them if they are helpful to the team, of
>> course!)
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 10:40 PM, Rick Fontanilla <
>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> >
>> > Our team just had a meeting to discuss the missions.  One of the big
>> > discussions was the Outside the Box mission.  Challenge says the idea
>> > model is no longer touching the box model.  The box model was never in
>> > Base.  One of the kids asked if we could bring the idea model to base.
>>  I
>> > said, in the past seasons, if it is not in the rules specifically, then
>> you can
>> > do it.
>> > Does that sound right?
>> >
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