VADCFLL-L Archives

November 2014

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From:
Fredrik Nyman <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
Fredrik Nyman <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Fri, 28 Nov 2014 07:24:22 -0500
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Doesn't matter for FLL.

I recommend the teacher edition since all functionality is unlocked.

On Friday, November 28, 2014, Parvathy Shivaramakrishnan <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> Hello,
> A different question. Our laptop with the EV3 software crashed and now we
> need to reinstall it. Do we install the Student Edition of Teacher Edition?
>
> Thanks
> Parvathy
>
> On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 3:15 PM, Gail D. Drake <[log in to unmask]
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>> wrote:
>
>>  The *robot *​is the tool to teach at a higher level.  Focus on team
>> work, responsibility of 'my piece of a puzzle' sothe entire puzzle can come
>> together, problem solving and critical thinking, variability.  I prefer to
>> raise kids that  can be flexible!
>>
>>
>>   Respectfully,
>> Professor Drake
>> Associate Professor Northern Virginia Community College
>> ILITE FRC Robotics Coach
>> ILITE FTC Robotics Coach
>> Robotics Tournament Director
>> US Cyber Patriot Coach
>>   ------------------------------
>> *From:* First Lego League in Virginia and DC <[log in to unmask]
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>> on behalf
>> of Fredrik Nyman <[log in to unmask]
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 25, 2014 2:58 PM
>>
>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>
>> *Subject:* Re: [VADCFLL-L] TJHSST - RE: [VADCFLL-L] Need Your Help.
>>
>>  These are all very good points, and I am very much aware of how
>> frustrating the variability can be.
>>
>>  But even if we were to standardize on manufactured playing fields,
>> wouldn't variability still very much be part of the game?  Our robots are
>> still plastic toys; the motors would still have considerable slop in their
>> internal gearing, the color sensors would still be sensitive to
>> illumination, and rookie teams would still eyeball their robot's starting
>> position in base.  All of which are arguably bigger variability issues than
>> whether the playing field is made froir pm plywood or particleboard or MDF.
>>
>>  And: what is the point of the robot game?  Is it an end in itself, or a
>> means -- a way to introduce kids to STEM, give them hands-on experience and
>> get them hooked?
>>
>>  If it is an end in itself (much like soccer or football), then by all
>> means let's standardize so that each team has the same equipment and plays
>> on identical fields.
>>
>>  But if the robot game is a means to STEM, then doesn't the variability
>> the kids see in the robot game help them?  Helps them identify a problem
>> (variability) that's very much a fact of life, think about possible causes
>> (table condition, illumination, battery voltage, gearing slack, robot
>> starting position...), experiment and figure out how they can minimize each
>> factor?  And isn't that knowledge going to help them next year, not just
>> with the robot game but also with their project since their investigation
>> of robot variability is real-world, quantifiable research and an excellent
>> introduction to scientific methods?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Haydee Cooper <[log in to unmask]
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>> wrote:
>>
>>>   I couldn't agree more with Nari that having faulty equipment that
>>> introduces a ton of variability is a surefire way to lose young,
>>> inexperienced kids from FLL and possibly from STEM altogether. The
>>> conclusion that some of them will inevitably reach when their hard work
>>> entirely goes to waste during the tournament because a robot that worked
>>> perfectly at home doesn't do anything right on the competition table is
>>> that this engineering stuff is unpredictable voodoo and that they can't
>>> build robots to save their lives.
>>>  It's also a bit disingenuous for a bunch of experienced engineers to
>>> extol the virtues of this kind of trial by fire when the kids don't even
>>> have the resources we might have in this kind of situation. They don't
>>> generally don't get to try out other tables ahead of time to check for
>>> variability. They don't get to turn a 50-hour work week into a 90-hour one
>>> when things go wrong--many of them only have a few set hours a week to work
>>> for eight weeks. And they don't get to miss deadlines and push back the
>>> tournament date.
>>>  You end up with an inherent survivorship bias. The kids who stick with
>>> it (and who might have gone into STEM regardless) learn to master all these
>>> details and build a beast of a robot, but in the meantime you've lost a lot
>>> of tentative learners who needed encouragement.
>>>
>>>  Haydee
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 1:27 PM, Fredrik Nyman <[log in to unmask]
>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What do you mean that FTC is "moving to manufactured tables [...] In a
>>>> year or two, so will FLL"?  Have FTC and/or FLL officials stated so, or is
>>>> it just what you predict will happen?
>>>>
>>>>  My own hope and prediction is that it will not.  Or rather, I do hope
>>>> that someone will come up with an improved table design, but I would hope
>>>> FLL never requires the use of a manufactured, standardized table from an
>>>> approved vendor.
>>>>
>>>>  Mind you, I very much agree with you that playing surface variability
>>>> is frustrating.  But that and all other variability discussed in the other
>>>> thread about batteries earlier today is very much part of the game.  If you
>>>> can get your team towards thinking about variability -- on the differences
>>>> from run to run, from table to table, and between practice and tournament
>>>> -- you set them up for making important discoveries on their own.  Ask them
>>>> about the differences they notice (from run to run, from table to table,
>>>> and between practice and tournament).  Ask them: how can we measure the
>>>> differences?  Help them set up and run experiments, introducing useful
>>>> terms like "hypothesis" and "standard deviation" as you go.
>>>>
>>>>  Once you have quantified the variability, have another brainstorming
>>>> session to figure out what you can do to reduce the variability.  For the
>>>> sports mission, you might challenge your team to design a solution that
>>>> doesn't require the ball to bounce on the table. :-)
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Anant Narayanan <
>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  Kurt makes a sound argument for adaptibility and bracketing design
>>>>> around the set point, but just for the record, there is no FLL requirement
>>>>> for use of plywood.  The official guidance for building tables, found at
>>>>> http://www.firstlegoleague.org/sites/default/files/Challenge/TeamResources/NaturesFury/2013-14TableOnly.pdf
>>>>> calls for
>>>>>
>>>>>  "Sanded plywood (or other very smooth board) 96” X 48” X at least
>>>>> 3/8” (2438mm X 1219mm X 10mm)."
>>>>>
>>>>>  Under this standard, MDF would qualify (and in fact would be best,
>>>>> but for its low moisture resistance unless treated).  IMHO, Sterling board
>>>>> (OSB/particle board) is rarely smooth enough without lamination/surface
>>>>> treatment and should be disfavored.  In fact I see no requirement for a
>>>>> wood surface -- what we use today is more an artifact of history, rather
>>>>> than design.  The above document notes that:
>>>>>
>>>>>  "With safety, weight, height, and cost in mind, a simple design is
>>>>> offered here, but as long as your surface is smooth, and your border walls
>>>>> are sized and located properly, how you build the understructure is up to
>>>>> you."
>>>>>
>>>>>  Clearly the focus on making the surface smooth -- a running theme
>>>>> throughout the document.  The portable table is made of different
>>>>> materials.
>>>>>
>>>>>  The other thing to keep in mind is that FTC is moving to
>>>>> manufactured tables (from Andy Mark).  In a year or two, so will FLL.
>>>>> Standardized surfaces offer many advantages -- they make the game day
>>>>> experience more predictable, and thus help in the retention of rookie
>>>>> teams.  A uniform product will let teams focus on the game, and learning
>>>>> important skills.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Soccer these days is largely played on synthetic (astroturf)
>>>>> surfaces (in our areas).  While children in some countries may play
>>>>> barefoot, and sadly, in war zones, there may even be kids who lose their
>>>>> limbs to land mines while playing sports, I don't think anyone would
>>>>> tolerate Darwinian arguments in such contexts.  We hardly want a return to
>>>>> the Spartan practice of leaving kids out in the cold overnight so that the
>>>>> ones who survive strengthened the race.  I say this only to make a
>>>>> rhetorical point, not to paint anyone as having these thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Encouraging kids to stick and persist with STEM is hard enough with
>>>>> balky robots and sensors to insist on the ritual/tradition of imperfect
>>>>> playing surfaces ("This is how we do it in FLL").  A bad table experience
>>>>> negates in six hours, what a coach may have spent three-six months in
>>>>> training and mentoring.  We lose the kids, we lose the coach.  often, all
>>>>> we have to show is increased entropy.  This is called churn in marketing
>>>>> speak, and there is entirely too much of it in robotics/FLL.
>>>>>
>>>>>  I feel we need to move beyond this culture of poverty (in thought,
>>>>> and in resources).  We should not be debating this issue any more --
>>>>> we should spend our energies working towards solutions.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Sincerely,
>>>>> Anant Narayanan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *---------------------------------------------------------- Anant S
>>>>> Narayanan Founder & Executive Director*
>>>>>
>>>>> *McLean Robotics Institute*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * McLean VA 22102 202-421-3826 <202-421-3826> (cell)
>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>
>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------*
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Curt Tran <[log in to unmask]
>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Thanks Jerry,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away” Job 1:21.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So TJ has finally fixed their entrance exam to really accommodate
>>>>>> FLL.  This teaches our kids another lesson in that the “perfect” world
>>>>>> never stays the same!  Okay, so let’s talk a little about FLL before
>>>>>> someone complaint!  During the Falls Church tournament, some coaches have
>>>>>> brought up the subject of the blue ball not bouncing as well on the
>>>>>> tournament tables.  This is due to the material makeup of the table
>>>>>> surface.  The FLL spec calls for plywood, and if anyone out there is using
>>>>>> OSB board, your team will have a lot of discovery during the tournament.
>>>>>> Even, if everyone is using plywood, the thickness will make a lot of
>>>>>> different.  The spec only specifies 96” X 48” plywood, but mute on the
>>>>>> thickness so if a team mission was relying on the ball bouncing a certain
>>>>>> way are the kids out of luck or can they adjust!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> An interesting lesson for the kids to learn about bouncing ball and
>>>>>> the unexpected is the recent landing of the ESA’s Philae probe (robot).
>>>>>> The unexpected bounces of Philae on the Comet 67P put it into a place where
>>>>>> no one could ever expect.  Read more on BBC at:
>>>>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-30083969.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To all our coaches, thank you for guiding and teaching the children
>>>>>> this FLL season.  They are an outstanding bunch of kids and are all winners
>>>>>> in our book.  To those teams that advancing to State, good lucks and have
>>>>>> FUN in Harrisonburg.  Make those hotel reservations quickly or they will
>>>>>> run out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For all other teams, the season does not end here.  There are more to
>>>>>> learn and teach other about your FLL experiences, so you can come back and
>>>>>> tell our judges all about it next year.  For those moving on to high
>>>>>> schools, there are FTC and FRC that they should look into.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let’s go and build another Philae, and never give up!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Best wishes,*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *T. (Curt) Tran*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Judge Advisor, MEH Falls Church Regional ’13, ’14*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Judge Advisor, GMU Regional ’11, ’12 & ’13*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Judge Advisor, TJHSST Regional ’09*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Mentor Team #5390, Kilmer-I ’09*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Mentor Team #8941, Kilmer-II ’09*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Coach Team #324, Scitobor ’08*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Coach Team #3563, Rabid Llama Lords ’07*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:* First Lego League in Virginia and DC [mailto:
>>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>] *On
>>>>>> Behalf Of *Jerry
>>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 25, 2014 6:43 AM
>>>>>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [VADCFLL-L] TJHSST - RE: [VADCFLL-L] Need Your Help.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FYI - tj no longer has a written portion I the examination so the
>>>>>> blessing is moot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 24, 2014, at 11:16 PM, Curt Tran <[log in to unmask]
>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Hi Marin, Jeff, Lakshmi and everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Okay here is the Secret in the “accidental” design of FLL & TJ!
>>>>>> Every year, it’s a coincident that both the TJ entrance exam and the FLL
>>>>>> State tournament in Virginia occurred during the first weekend of
>>>>>> December.  For this reason many 8th graders might have decided not
>>>>>> to compete in FLL during their final year to focus on the TJ test.
>>>>>> However, for those students that are pursuing TJ admittance, winning
>>>>>> regional and advanced to State during their 8th grade is more
>>>>>> critical than winning it during 7th or 6th grades.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TJ admission has made it very clear that they do not make any
>>>>>> exception for students missing their entrance exam.  Unless you are sick
>>>>>> and bed ridden, they will not let you make up the exam.  However, every
>>>>>> year TJ makes the only one exception for those students that have to travel
>>>>>> to JMU to compete for the State FLL tournament.  TJ will excuse those
>>>>>> students from the second portion of the exam so they can travel to
>>>>>> Harrisonburg to be on time for their competition.  They will just take the
>>>>>> first portion of the exam and allow making up the writing portion at a
>>>>>> later date.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some students might not like deferring their essay portion to a later
>>>>>> date, but this is a blessing in disguised.  If asked by these students,
>>>>>> FIRST will compile a list of their names and send it to TJ asking for
>>>>>> testing accommodation.  The list of name is typically handled by the TJ
>>>>>> admission director personally every year to make sure that they receive
>>>>>> accommodation for early release from testing.  So why does TJ makes this
>>>>>> special accommodation you might ask, TJ is the Governor’s school for
>>>>>> science and technology.  They are out to select the most qualified science
>>>>>> and technology students in Virginia for admission.  How qualify can one be
>>>>>> if their team won FIRST’s FLL regional tournament and have made it to
>>>>>> State.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FIRST is one of the top STEM program in the nation and advancing to
>>>>>> State is a high honor for these students.  Although TJ does not accept
>>>>>> outside recommendation for applicants, but how cool can it be that your
>>>>>> name is on a very short list of name from FIRST that is being personally
>>>>>> handle by the director of admission.  I’m not saying that the students will
>>>>>> get into TJ just because they are on this short list, but it shows how much
>>>>>> TJ has valued FIRST’s programs and has honored those students that have
>>>>>> advanced to the FLL State tournament.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So having an opportunity to skip the second part of the TJ entrance
>>>>>> exam is really a blessing in disguised for our 8th graders!  If
>>>>>> anyone still have question on little mistakes that the kids should try to
>>>>>> avoid on their TJ application just e-mail me and I will try to reply off
>>>>>> list since that is not really related to FLL.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Curt
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, November 24, 2014 12:28 PM
>>>>>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [VADCFLL-L] TJHSST - RE: [VADCFLL-L] Need Your Help.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Curt,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm curious to hear the TJ secret.  We have a sibling who is applying
>>>>>> for TJ this year.  He's competed in LEGO and VEX before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 12:22 PM, Curt Tran <[log in to unmask]
>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Niketa,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Congratulation!  Make sure the kids go to the FLL State tournament;
>>>>>>  it’s the best thing that can ever happen to any TJHSST hopeful!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is one of that real world FLL “accidental” in design for
>>>>>> Virginia FLL and our TJHSST bound students.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Once you have registered, the State will try to schedule all your
>>>>>> team’s events in the later part of day to accommodate their TJ test!  And
>>>>>> even if the schedule is still too tight for your team when it comes out,
>>>>>> there will be many Coopertition® FLL teams that will swap their
>>>>>> judging schedules with you (with our scheduler at State final approval for
>>>>>> the swap, of course) .
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If any TJHSST hopefuls out there still have not find Coach Katarina’s
>>>>>> secret message about VA FLL and TJ, please e-mail me, and I will spill the
>>>>>> TJ secret.  (I cannot locate her secret message on the website either!)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Best wishes,*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *T. (Curt) Tran*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Judge Advisor, MEH Falls Church Regional ’13, ’14*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Judge Advisor, GMU Regional ’11, ’12 & ’13*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Judge Advisor, TJHSST Regional ’09*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Mentor Team #5390, Kilmer-I ’09*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Mentor Team #8941, Kilmer-II ’09*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Coach Team #324, Scitobor ’08*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Coach Team #3563, Rabid Llama Lords ’07*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:* First Lego League in Virginia and DC [mailto:
>>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>] *On
>>>>>> Behalf Of *Kent and Anne Meyer
>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, November 24, 2014 11:21 AM
>>>>>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [VADCFLL-L] Need Your Help.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't worry, Niketa. This happens every year and the tournament knows
>>>>>> how to handle it. Contact Nick Swayne or Dustin Skelton about exactly what
>>>>>> you need to do. Congrats on your success!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anne Meyer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 24, 2014, at 10:44 AM, niketa ganju <[log in to unmask]
>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Hello Everyone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am a coach of rookie Team - The Master Builders- 4636. We are from
>>>>>> Fairfax county  We are lucky to be selected for the State Championship.
>>>>>> Unfortunately 5 out of my 8 team members are appearing for the  entrance
>>>>>> test of Thomas Jefferson High School on December 6th. The time schedule for
>>>>>> the test is from 8 am till 12 am. The kids can be at the tournament
>>>>>> location by 2 pm. We are Division 2 team. The kids really want to
>>>>>> participate in the tournament as it is their first time. I would really
>>>>>> appreciate if anyone can let me know whom should I contact to reschedule
>>>>>> our team's events. The deadline to register is tomorrow and we are really
>>>>>> worried that we might not be able to participate if we are not allowed to
>>>>>> reschedule our events.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any help would be really appreciated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Niketa ganju- Coach of The Master Builders- 4636.
>>>>>>   ------------------------------
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             ~MARIN KOBIN~
>>>>>> University of Rochester class of 2009
>>>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To UNSUBSCRIBE or CHANGE your settings, please visit
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>>>>>>    ------------------------------
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    ------------------------------
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  ------------------------------
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>>>> subscribe.
>>>>
>>>
>>>   ------------------------------
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>>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
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>
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