I totally agree to this. Kids need to be on top of the rules regarding the
scoring, and if needed refuse to sign the score sheet if they believe there
is a bad referee call.

We had an incident over the weekend, where there was a bad call, and head
referee checked the rules before agreeing the team actually got the points
after the referee refused it..

--Oz

On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 4:52 PM Frank Levine <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> We are a second year team, and you're 100% right.  Spend the week leading
> up to the tournament with the kids scoring practice runs as much as
> possible.  The ones that are running the Robot need to be familiar with
> every point that they think they should get, and why.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 5:41 PM, Thomas (Tweeks) Weeks <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Sure Frank!
>>
>> I just didn't want to flood the list with a bunch of (often embarrassing)
>> back and forth.  I'm and old USENET junkie, so I always believe in sharing
>> findings out to lists once answers are found. [image: 😊]
>>
>>
>>
>> So part of our (rookie) team's problem was definitely not understanding
>> the truck scoring mission ("supporting the full weight (at the end)" was
>> not during the movement of the truck, but only the end state.. so EITHER 50
>> or 60.. not both (typically.. unless someone picks up and moves the whole
>> truck ;) ).
>>
>> But when discussing the ev3lessons tool with Sanjay, their default
>> starting 96 points was confusing when comparing with other grading tools..
>> but looks correct after discussing with him.
>>
>> I'm continuing to look at how the ref recorded our ending state... but
>> right now it looks like we were shorted several of our black bars (all blk
>> bars were left in original location or in the flower pot).  I'll look at
>> the grading sheet we were given back (tonight) and report back here.  Since
>> we were exactly 32 points lower than expected.. I suspect we were shorted 4
>> black bars of credit. I'll report back once I know for sure. (was there
>> anything else that can account for exactly 32points?)
>>
>>
>> *Current Take Aways:*
>>
>>
>> *1) Obtain Intimate Working Knowledge of the End State Grading:*
>>
>> REALLY make sure the rules/scoring is understood by everyone on your
>> team. Especially rookie teams (like us) but even more-so the kids.. since
>> THEY are the ones who need to ask possibly challenge the ref's explanation
>> of the recorded end of game state.
>>
>>
>> *2) Use the Sample Scoring Sheets:*
>>
>> Actually USE the sample scoring sheets in your own test runs with the
>> kids so that they are used to seeing and using them so that they can
>> recognize ref grading issues (or misunderstadngins) before signing off on
>> the ref's calls.  Our kids had seen the rubric sheets, but we never used a
>> robot-game grading sheet with them.. so that's our (coaches) fault.
>>
>>
>> *3) Ref State Review - Go slow and Ask Ask Ask:*
>>
>> Encourage the kids to ask refs when something looks off or is simply not
>> understood.
>> Tell them to "Don't rush or feel pressured".
>>
>>
>>
>> All things being equal (correct me if I'm wrong), but perceived scoring
>> discrepancies can only lie in one of two places right?
>>
>> i) bad call
>>
>> or
>>
>> ii) misunderstanding
>>
>>
>> either way.. the kids should be able to recognize an issue and either
>> catch the bad call OR learn the correct state grading/rule.
>>
>>
>> Heh.. I know that with me at least, it's usually that latter (ii) [image:
>> 😉]
>>
>>
>> I'll let you all knwo what I find.
>>
>>
>> Tweeks
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Frank Levine <[log in to unmask]>
>> *Sent:* Monday, November 9, 2015 4:54 PM
>> *To:* Thomas (Tweeks) Weeks
>> *Cc:* <[log in to unmask]>
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [VADCFLL-L] Tournament scores
>>
>> Given the fact that we are in tournament season and many teams are
>> meeting this week and using the EV3Lessons scoring app, I would appreciate
>> it if the discussion regarding errors (or not errors) remained out in the
>> open.  I checked it against our interpretations of the rules and found no
>> problems.  As long as the whole thing is handled with Gracious
>> Professionalism, it is better to have more eyes on potential problems.
>>
>> The guys at EV3Lessons did a great job on this, please don't restrict the
>> flow of information about such a public resource.
>>
>> Frank Levine
>> The Robotic Rockets
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 3:44 PM, Thomas (Tweeks) Weeks <
>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hehe.. I was afraid of this..
>>> Taking discussion off list. :)  Ping Sanjay or I if interested in the
>>> discussion.. :)
>>>
>>> Tweeks
>>> p.s. we really appreciate the awesome community.. both here, and by
>>> folks like the EV3 Lessons folks.. which we (especially us ignorant rookie
>>> teams) rely on so heavily :)
>>>
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: First Lego League in Virginia and DC <[log in to unmask]>
>>> on behalf of EV3 Lessons <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 3:39 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: [VADCFLL-L] Tournament scores
>>>
>>> @Tweeks:  Could you let us know what "grading errors" were in the
>>> scoring tool we made that you referred to in your post?   It has been
>>> tested by many refs. It was used at a Qualifying Tournament last weekend
>>> and the refs and/or teams using it have not mentioned any error.
>>>
>>> If there are errors, we would love the opportunity to correct
>>> calculation issues or clarify wording if it was just an interpretation
>>> issue by teams.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__ev3lessons.com_resources_scorer_score.html-23en-2Dus&d=BQIFAw&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=J5fb0ELkRoh7TzAGYz99sSMvB-c7i4AC0HDT2OVPrww&m=ailQO14rcyaiGrNhowCrnShyHOvyrTJuIOCCoO9RCys&s=1QpIBA53ByA4MxnMR7aFrVIIk6919cl2VImkEOhxmog&e=
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Sanjay and Arvind
>>> EV3Lessons
>>>
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>>
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