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First Lego League in Virginia and DC

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From:
VA-DC Referee Advisor <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
VA-DC Referee Advisor <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Wed, 14 Oct 2015 21:30:09 -0400
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Yes, that's right.  See the "Penalties" description in the Missions

   1.

   Penalties – For each Penalty as described in Rule D09, the Ref will
   place one Black Bar on the Mat in a convenient out-of- the-way place, not
   to exceed four Bars. The Ref may shift them out of the Robot’s way as
   needed, but they must always stay in a negative scoring position.

The referee will assess a maximum of four Interruption and Junk Penalties
on the Robot and Equipment in a match. After the maximum of four Black Bars
have been placed on the mat because of a Penalty, the team can rescue the
Robot by an Interruption without any additional scoring penalty.  Models
are still susceptible to being taken out of play because of an
Interruption, or because of Stranding.

  The scoring value of each Black Bar placed as a penalty is Minus 8 per
Bar, as described in M04, Sorting.  The bars are no longer in their
original Setup position (which was off the mat with the Referee) and may
not be moved into a Green Bin or the Landfill.

Steve Scherr
Virginia-DC FLL Referee Advisor

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Thomas West <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> What is the cost of the penalty?  Is this when the referee would place one
> of the four black bars in their possession somewhere on the playing field?
> If so, what happens if a team incurs more than four penalties?
> On Oct 14, 2015 7:21 PM, "VA-DC Referee Advisor" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Robot Bill is exactly correct,
>>
>>   D03 -- Equipment objects are objects that the *team* brings to the
>> match.
>>   D08 -- Models are objects on the field when the team arrives (the field
>> set-up kit models)
>>
>>   Junk Penalties (D09) can only apply to objects/attachments/items that
>> the team brings to the match.  There is no junk penalty for any piece of
>> [team] equipment that is completely in Safety, or that is stored as allowed
>> by R11.
>>
>>   Plain word description--if the team brings an object (not the robot)
>> and leaves it outside Safety at the end of the match, then it will be
>> considered Junk.
>>
>> Steve Scherr
>> Virginia-DC FLL Referee Advisor
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 6:01 PM, Robot Bill <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'll let the VA-DC FLL referees give an official decision on this, but
>>> it is pretty clear to me with the existing rules what would be junk and
>>> what would not be junk. The key to the interpretation are the words "you
>>> bring" in the definition of equipment in rule D03. Since the junk penalty
>>> is only for "equipment" and equipment is what "you bring" and you are not
>>> allowed to bring models to the field. If you follow all of the logic, then
>>> the models (airplane toys, methane, etc.) are NOT subject to a junk penalty
>>> since they are not "equipment". Only equipment, *that which you brought
>>> to the match*, is subject to the junk penalty.
>>>
>>>
>>> *D09 – Penalties *– A “Penalty” is a deduction from your final score
>>> due to a specific action that is allowed but discouraged.
>>>
>>> Penalty values are found in the Missions. There are two types of Penalty:
>>>
>>> ● Interruption Penalty – Caused by you Interrupting the Robot while
>>> it’s not completely in Safety.
>>>
>>> ● Junk Penalty – Caused…
>>>
>>> *     • *immediately – by each piece of *equipment* the Robot strands
>>> partly in Safety.
>>>
>>> *     • *at the end of the Match – by each piece of *equipment* still
>>> stranded completely outside Safety.
>>>
>>> *D03 – Equipment* – “Equipment” is everything *you bring to a Match*
>>> for Mission-related activity
>>>
>>> *D08 - Model *– A “Model” (often called a “Mission Model”) is any LEGO
>>> structure already at the Field when you arrive to compete. *You don’t
>>> bring Models to the competition Field* – they’re already there when you
>>> arrive.
>>>
>>> Hopefully I have clarified this a bit for now.
>>>
>>> *RECOMMENDATION:* Your team members, *not* the coach, should
>>> understand the entire challenge and all related updates. They should be
>>> able to provide a logical explanation to any referee who might make a
>>> mistake with respect to applying junk penalties. See rule number R18.
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.firstlegoleague.org_sites_default_files_Challenge_TRASH-2DTREK_TRASH-2DTREK-2DChallenge.pdf&d=BQIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=k6Oa5GxfBPFMgGjb2r5QIoEOeBZs9xbNIpA0kLw_kFQ&m=-QYMGY6Wk6zW29mGqzxTF8T6fLg3k1DFAfzhlbjUwCY&s=jhSFFgz3VIk2Wyoz0sZuIL2Cqh2wRZBQstm4CHrT9xM&e= 
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.firstlegoleague.org_sites_default_files_Challenge_TRASH-2DTREK_TRASH-2DTREK-2DChallenge.pdf&d=BQMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=J5fb0ELkRoh7TzAGYz99sSMvB-c7i4AC0HDT2OVPrww&m=dGzZ5UFozMDjmk9i_1eDBgLaDXiws364TCKkwctEDgY&s=COaOP9R_SJuU9m16pOznd8Lg2t6wp3XVkmVCm22V9SE&e=>
>>>
>>> *R18 – Scoring *
>>>
>>> ● Scoresheet – The Ref recalls action and inspects the Field with you,
>>> Mission by Mission...
>>>
>>> *• *If you agree with the Ref on all facts, you sign the sheet, and the
>>> score is final.
>>>
>>> *• *If you don’t agree, tell the Ref nicely. Refs can be wrong, and
>>> when they are, they want to know. If there is any lingering disagreement,
>>> the Head Ref makes the final decision.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best of Luck! Have Fun!
>>> Bill
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Joseph Trombo <
>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jennifer and all,
>>>>
>>>> The BrickBeasts have discussed this quite a bit, and have come to the
>>>> same conclusions that you have.
>>>> But, I think an official interpretation would be lovely.
>>>> (Please?)
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Amy Trombo
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> *From:* Jennifer Koehler <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:01 AM
>>>> *Subject:* [VADCFLL-L] Junk and Penalties
>>>>
>>>> What is considered Junk? i.e. If we attempt to collect a trash bag and
>>>> lose it, if we demo the building and don't collect the bricks, if we
>>>> attempt any task really like airplane toys, methane, etc and we drop it and
>>>> don't go back for it, is that considered junk?  In reading the definitions,
>>>> it sounds like "equipment" is any attachments we have that we leave on the
>>>> board. So we wouldn't get points for getting things into safety, but we
>>>> wouldn't lose any either? correct?
>>>>
>>>> It's defined below:
>>>> D09 -
>>>> Junk Penalty – Caused…
>>>> • immediately – by each piece of equipment the Robot strands partly in
>>>> Safety.
>>>> • at the end of the Match – by each piece of equipment still stranded
>>>> completely outside Safety.
>>>>
>>>> whereas:
>>>> D03 – Equipment – “Equipment” is everything you bring to a Match for
>>>> Mission-related activity
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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