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October 2011

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Sender:
First Lego League in Virginia and DC <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Sat, 29 Oct 2011 09:55:29 -0400
Reply-To:
VA/DC Referee Advisor <[log in to unmask]>
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VA/DC Referee Advisor <[log in to unmask]>
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My standard answer is "the team can ASK, but the referee can't do it,
since the rules don't allow it...."

Rule 19:
• Anything done to your field outside Base by your legally active
ROBOT stays that way, unless the ROBOT changes it.
• Objects moved are not replaced or moved out of the way by hand.

Steve

On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 9:44 AM, B Bergenstock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hmmm... could it be the case that the kids say to the refs- "please remove
> the ones not in base?" before touching the robot?
> Brandy
>
> On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 9:41 AM, Stephen Scherr <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> The referees should follow the guidance in Update 25.
>>
>> 25 - BACTERIA CLUSTER ENTERING BASE
>> If a cluster of several objects is entering Base but not all
>> individuals are in yet, and you touch the robot, Rule 18 Bullet #3,
>> and Rule 21 together mean the ref should take away the ones that
>> hadn't made it to Base yet (correct, but REALLY?)  In practice though,
>> it's tough to win an argument about which ones were in or out, so
>> referees usually either treat the cluster as a single object, (nice,
>> but incorrect), or they stretch the Benefit-Of-The-Doubt rule too much
>> (nice, but sloppy, and inconsistent).   This needs to be repaired in
>> the Rules, but here's your exception for now:  When the robot is
>> moving a continuous cluster of bacteria into Base, they are to be
>> treated as one object.  As soon as the first is in, they're all in.
>> Two separate clusters are assessed separately, and fish, rats, pizza,
>> and ice cream will still also be assessed individually.
>>
>> I haven't seen your container, but I would say that it is likely that
>> it is all in in your scenario.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 9:26 AM, B Bergenstock <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>> > OK- a scenario from my team.  Occasionally the robot does not make a
>> > turn
>> > back as far as it is programed to go, but it usually hits the bacteria
>> > tray
>> > on its way back to base (the one closest to the base near the yellow
>> > ball),
>> > then almost always spins itself into the base.  The container the kids
>> > used
>> > to catch the bacteria is half in and half out of base, which means not
>> > all
>> > the bacteria are in base when they need to retrieve it.
>> >   Would all those bacterium get taken out, or some? Just wondering so I
>> > can
>> > tell the kids what to expect (most of the time) from the judges when
>> > that
>> > happens.
>> > Brandy
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 12:43 AM, VA/DC Referee Advisor
>> > <[log in to unmask]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Sonya, that is correct.  If the item hasn't crossed into Base, and it
>> >> came from out in the field (the robot didn't bring it out of Base when
>> >> it left), then the item would be taken out of play by the referee when
>> >> the robot was touched.
>> >>
>> >> Steve
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 12:34 AM, Sonya Shaver <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Thanks, Steve!  So, if the robot has an attachment on it that has
>> >> > grabbed
>> >> > something, and then comes back to base, and the robot is all the way
>> >> > back in
>> >> > base, but has an attachment still dangling out of base that has the
>> >> > item
>> >> > attached to it, then they could lose the item if the touch the robot?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:45 PM, VA/DC Referee Advisor
>> >> > <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Rule 18 tells what happens when you touch the robot or its cargo.
>> >> >>  It
>> >> >> includes a Warning: "Avoid touching a robot entering Base until its
>> >> >> cargo has also reached Base!"
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The bottom line is that the team will usually not want to touch the
>> >> >> robot or its cargo until the robot itself and each of its cargo
>> >> >> items
>> >> >> have crossed into Base.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The position of each item is determined independently (Rule 21) and
>> >> >> cargo that has not crossed into Base may be lost (Rule 18).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> There are also several Robot Game Updates that give more details on
>> >> >> specific cases:
>> >> >> Update 24, Multi-part models, tells us that the yellow farm truck
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> its contents are treated as a single object--if one is in Base, then
>> >> >> all are in Base.  Similarly the white refrigerated trailer and its
>> >> >> contents are treated as a single object for entering Base.
>> >> >> Update 25, Bacteria Cluster Entering Base, tells us that distinct
>> >> >> continuous clusters of bacteria will be treated as one object for
>> >> >> purposes of entering Base.  It also reminds us that this doesn't
>> >> >> apply
>> >> >> to other mission models.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Update 30, from this week, doesn't talk about Base, but it does give
>> >> >> some examples about when a mission model is cargo.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Steve Scherr
>> >> >> VA/DC FLL Referee Advisor
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Sonya Shaver <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > Hello,
>> >> >> > Can I ask a question to clarify when you can touch the robot when
>> >> >> > it
>> >> >> > returns
>> >> >> > to base in between programs?
>> >> >> > In past years, the team could grab the robot as soon as a portion
>> >> >> > of
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > robot had clearly entered base.  But I think I read something in a
>> >> >> > question
>> >> >> > on this list about cargo needing to be in base too.  So, can you
>> >> >> > clarify
>> >> >> > about that?  For example, if the robot has an attachment that has
>> >> >> > grabbed
>> >> >> > some item off the table to bring it back to base, then when the
>> >> >> > robot
>> >> >> > comes
>> >> >> > back to base, once a part of the robot has clearly entered base,
>> >> >> > can
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > team member still grab the robot?  Even if the cargo is still out
>> >> >> > of
>> >> >> > base,
>> >> >> > but is attached to the attachment on the robot?  Am I being clear?
>> >> >> > Thanks,
>> >> >> > Sonya in Harrisonburg
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