Waldemar:

Excellent points . . . !!

"Science" was specifically invented -- say, for instance, at the Royal  
Society of London (c. 1680) -- for two related purposes . . .

1) To exclude "metaphysics" (which at that time meant speculation re:  
"final causes," aka the end-of-the-world, and all things Roman  
Catholic) and

2) To provide the basis for engineering society (thus its role in the  
Industrial Revolutions and the expansion of the British Empire, the  
Opium Wars &c)

So, accordingly, what *engineering* goal is being envisioned when  
"mind maps" are being drawn . . . ??

As I've mentioned a few times (but has not been taken up on this  
list), the modern "science" of psychology has played a significant  
role in trying to *engineer* people's "attitudes and behaviors."

In the fullest-extent, this is known as "psychological warfare" (as,  
for instance, the "Cold War"), the scientific basis of which has names  
like "Social Psychology" (as invented by Kurt Lewin &al).

In the more day-to-day sense, this is known as "advertising" and  
"propaganda" and "memeology," all of which employ mass-media to  
inculcate the population with particular goals in mind.  Like voting  
(when the outcome is already known.)  Or, buying things you truly  
don't need &c.

Gregg, of course, is correct.  There *is* a "problem" with psychology  
-- as the "science" behind *engineering* behaviors -- since,  
evidently, it simply doesn't "work" anymore.  People aren't doing what  
they are supposed to do.  They aren't "adjusting" the way they are  
supposed to.  People are upset.  Something is broken.

Gregg is attempting to construct a psychological "grand synthesis"  
with the hopes of putting together a new "behavior" *engineering*  
paradigm -- constructed out of the detritus of the earlier attempts.   
To get people back on track.  Courageously, to be sure.

But, alternatively, it's just possible that this sort of "psychology"  
*cannot* work without the mass-media which carries out its plans.  For  
Gregg, psychology began in the 19th-century -- exactly when mass-media  
began (via telegraph and newspapers.)  Of course, there was a  
psychology going back to the 4th-century BC but that doesn't count --  
since it can't be used for the same behavioral engineering purposes.

If there is to be a new "science of psychology," as Gregg intends (and  
has organized us to help him accomplish), then the *engineering* goals  
need to be made explicit.  That's the whole point of "measurable or  
systematic principles."  Science feeds engineering, like daylight  
follows the dawn.

Otherwise it's just "pisser dans le vent," n'est pas . . . <g>

Mark

Quoting Waldemar Schmidt <[log in to unmask]>:

> Dear Friends:
>
> What fascinating ideas about mental processes, mind, consciousness,  
> and science.  No idling grey matter on this list serve!
>
> But some of us, such as myself, are a little bit slower and need  
> some definitions.  Sorry, that’s my reductionist training exerting  
> itself. Please understand that the following comments deal with  
> methods and means and not with person or persons.
>
> For instance, how is “science” being used?  Wiktionary defines “science” as:
>
> science
>
> 1.    A particular discipline or branch of learning, especially one  
> dealing with measurable or systematic principles rather than  
> intuition or natural ability. [from 14th
>
> 2.    Specifically the natural sciences  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_natural-5Fscience&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=-cbYA2VU5t-3f-fdo-wtYkjJPY7e0zCK12DtMwoeFYA&e=>.
>
> 3.     Knowledge  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_knowledge&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=coFevuvkx9ynHz2TeR37-tHYN-aS_-nSfaJkC4I1tOc&e=> gained through study <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_study&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=dCElDACihsn-ziUhviIyvvGE_0vImUsOQfWjqe2EJCQ&e=> or practice <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_practice&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=YseRT2bPwLNOfLTmnPkT76ZKrI-2YpuVuw5rZ9GJ87g&e=>; mastery of a particular discipline or area. [from 14th  
> c
>
> 4.    The fact of knowing something; knowledge  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_knowledge&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=coFevuvkx9ynHz2TeR37-tHYN-aS_-nSfaJkC4I1tOc&e=> or understanding of a truth. [from 14th  
> c
>
> 5.    The collective discipline of study or learning acquired  
> through the scientific method  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_scientific-5Fmethod&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=xd0rFmae1PGmS5A7VnXTXxNrH2DiU1wkS-P4hFJxKt8&e=>; the sum of knowledge gained from such methods and discipline. [from 18th  
> c
>
> 6.    Knowledge derived from scientific disciplines, scientific  
> method, or any systematic effort.
>
> 7.    The scientific community.
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_science&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=IpmE1HgW6w1hw-06vvj96u1IYWhv91kiBYDAK8xQiSM&e=  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_science&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=IpmE1HgW6w1hw-06vvj96u1IYWhv91kiBYDAK8xQiSM&e=>
>
> How is it being used in this discussion?  This is important in terms  
> of the Wittgensteinian word game, n’est pas?  My conception of  
> “science” is that principally it is a discipline, a method, a way of  
> thinking, a filtration means for dealing with disparate  
> representations of reality which tends towards finding and  
> exploiting reproducible representations.  That is, centered around  
> definition #1 above.  But, more often than not, the word “science”  
> is used variably to mean, as it may be useful to a particular  
> contention with which it is associated, any or all of the other  
> definitions, just in case any one or more of them may affirm the  
> contention being made.
>
> OK, in case that seems nit picking – wait, there’s more – as the TV  
> hucksters proclaim.
>
> How are the words “mental processes,” “mind,” and “consciousness”  
> being used in this discussion?  Again, I’ll refer to Wiktionary,  
> since that is easily accessible by all.
>
> mental
>
> 1.    Of or relating to the mind  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mind&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=PoGUxNpZJbGZ-MVP1YIEdZOe1qcqzvCDpe0PrPtBedI&e=> or an intellectual <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_intellect&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=bYKdSMH1aOkF_uCOZuJqWu5QwxOYXLxU8lkWjzN2lxc&e=>  
> process.
>
> 2.    Insane  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_insane&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=w-rL22JHMDrosrPvUfy_OKkWu8Y6N1__0Z-wBoG62Ek&e=>, mad <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mad&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=F339WLuifNNXnAp2YjDVsbdI0iGGba4Eijl2eXMU66M&e=>, crazy  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_crazy&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=xXXthS8K4trxkP8nN6WWry8WtNPP0GuyZkho84SP7g4&e=>.
>
> 3.    Enjoyable  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_enjoyable&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=56lUFKRHJRxuPv9iIPfOBu4xR2YXkyB6sOETWSvOY24&e=> or fun <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_fun&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=6pTCsnTso0nlbSz1gP3UUCCtQP7oBNOx5bFMjUpYbtE&e=>, especially in a frenetic  
> way.
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mental&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=iqHOvOiJdR_VJUtLLytfRJ5BcbdGMg0KX5zrOe7LO3k&e=  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mental&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=iqHOvOiJdR_VJUtLLytfRJ5BcbdGMg0KX5zrOe7LO3k&e=>
>
>
> mind
>
> 1.    The ability for rational  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_rational&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=ZPzsIsx3m8-7rXNOlVXH91ekDFzgF6rIkZ9sgv-SgyM&e=> thought  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_thought&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=bpvxDKVGm-NW6yvgBp08Mrx3_dOPa3aVUR8H_1eJo4s&e=>.
>
> 2.    The ability  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_ability&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=5uOhyMO8RdHEqcw7Osa3II3v7zvCZzMe8m5Vt5BM0t0&e=> to be aware <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_aware&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=sDFROvqrNWkh6iscOIijngg-hXmHCYPPrJwIhIGCy4s&e=> of  
> things.
>
> 3.    The ability to remember things.
>
> 4.    The ability to focus the thoughts.
>
> 5.    Somebody that embodies certain mental qualities.
>
> 6.    Judgment, opinion, or view.
>
> 7.    Desire, inclination, or intention.
>
> 8.    A healthy mental state.
>
> 9.    The non-  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_non-2D&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=pHi0Yo0ewjQwnJKkN8yCcfoYCHXzgSatMycf921_Mcc&e=>material <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_material&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=oVH_9HPqzEhzgLtBiU5NzPLNpWlU_KbA8Wjd3y_8kUI&e=> substance <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_substance&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=HQkgE-nG29vmawdSdDDawNbSNtqeXHV4W0nvZ7qYGPQ&e=> or set of processes <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_process&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=oo9NDaIrDRA66AGcbV9pyx5Iu9AvcRQSscm1eD54jVY&e=> in which consciousness <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_consciousness&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=N5NQtfKssGCncmMohYMYoh4eLZiYLKVac8Xv_judpuE&e=>, perception <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_perception&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=8eWPtT49qOoUCY5KtueMUICo9o5kA1AAiiTcBh73xKE&e=>, affectivity <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_affectivity&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=de5v6fA2Z8-UlbndUhlNKsyhW8julFQ32j-7q2_l55o&e=>, judgement <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_judgement&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=nkBcPGGCHgahkQUH_L0IVFSmM4RBo84jQ8_c7xAyLYA&e=>, thinking <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_thinking&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=QdBT7r4EuwqqgdCSn4nc9ZhoM6rDwCvfkr9rgE3LaV0&e=>, and will <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_will&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=Z4IVrlCWPV6JKiLCV-9_EkrkMEIyoO10PWhBSH2ER0k&e=> are  
> based.
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mind&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=PoGUxNpZJbGZ-MVP1YIEdZOe1qcqzvCDpe0PrPtBedI&e=  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mind&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=PoGUxNpZJbGZ-MVP1YIEdZOe1qcqzvCDpe0PrPtBedI&e=>
>
>
> conscious
>
> 1.    Alert  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_alert&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=MYumFMIaAdY_gqkKoeY9Um_YSkfq0Yt5PxMMHwGbzdM&e=>, awake <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_awake&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=57ELSfPbxtID1-hlgR09tgTZnRCkDN9AC7gMmKaew4g&e=>; with one's mental <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mental&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=iqHOvOiJdR_VJUtLLytfRJ5BcbdGMg0KX5zrOe7LO3k&e=> faculties <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_faculty&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=12T0UQqJ0qw6RqPwvNL5m9z8p9IRn66uJW4a-Ooxw80&e=>  
> active.
>
> 2.    Aware  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_aware&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=sDFROvqrNWkh6iscOIijngg-hXmHCYPPrJwIhIGCy4s&e=> of one's own existence; aware <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_aware&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=sDFROvqrNWkh6iscOIijngg-hXmHCYPPrJwIhIGCy4s&e=> of one's own awareness  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_awareness&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=KMF2BYFWGJg_fOYGIO4QvKmRUIfOwaDKlyA6hUzNZM8&e=>.
>
> 3.    Aware  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_aware&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=sDFROvqrNWkh6iscOIijngg-hXmHCYPPrJwIhIGCy4s&e=> of, sensitive <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_sensitive&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=D19qfv16zyQXtzQs1g4J1zfFAvHWxrd2KHqXYKytIcY&e=> to; observing and noticing, or being strongly interested in or concerned  
> about.
>
> 4.    Deliberate  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_deliberate&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=pBBA99rXxcnF9zE7xOog8mCsx10GOCGmgDU_BArcnww&e=>, intentional <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_intentional&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=1Ourwcl47YAqCHQJafvYX5gzSvM61tQaen-w2Q-9q10&e=>, done with awareness <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_awareness&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=KMF2BYFWGJg_fOYGIO4QvKmRUIfOwaDKlyA6hUzNZM8&e=> of what one is  
> doing.
>
> 5.    Known  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_known&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=QvoQ3zsf733nRHgAP2YGMOamikEXaV0zS2Oip6ZrCDc&e=> or felt <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_felt&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=eyd6RpjI5N5uubDYl4p-8XMEQFOCbFSwMb9-wfAcz0s&e=> personally, internally by a  
> person.
>
> 6.    Self-conscious  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_self-2Dconscious&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=JjHK3yuqMzxSBSxg4B7Xkg0DhmR0Lm2Ecy6fqQFLQ8w&e=>.
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_conscious&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=5lnKZ_QChjktNnwS6jAPx3F3-tmimSGuL-8LFUx_ygA&e=  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_conscious&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=5lnKZ_QChjktNnwS6jAPx3F3-tmimSGuL-8LFUx_ygA&e=>
>
> Clearly, “mental” as used in this discussion surely means the  
> application of definition #1 above.  As such, I take it to be a  
> sophisticated way to state that “something is going on in the  
> "mind.”  Is there a more specific way in which this word is being  
> used in this discussion?
>
> “Mind,” on the other hand, appears to allude to a variety of  
> psychological functions, as well as affective, cognitive, and  
> conative states.  This wide usage and reference leaves the word’s  
> meaning too vague in meaningful discussion. [Sorry, my reductionist  
> opinion, to my mind (pun intended).]
>
> And, “consciousness” – how may we apprehend its use?  The  
> definitions above seem uniformly confined to understanding this  
> state in a singular way – as does “mind, by the way.  That is,  
> implicit is the perception of reference to the conscious state – as  
> opposed to either the pre-conscious or the unconscious state.
>
> Which leads me to suggest the following:
>
>
>                                         (Apologies, as needed, to  
> Gregg’s more instructive Human Mind Diagrams)
>
>
>
> In this representation, the “mind” includes all three levels of  
> activity – the conscious, the pre-conscious, and the unconscious, as  
> well as the sympathetic nervous system, the endocrine system, and  
> the body in general.  But, more commonly, when we refer to the  
> “mind” we imply CNS mental activity of which we are consciously  
> aware.  Whereas, in terms of consciousness we are only aware of the  
> “conscious mind” component and partially/intermittently aware of the  
> “pre-conscious” component while, by definition, being unaware of the  
> “unconscious mind” component and processes therein.  On the other  
> hand, “mental processes” occur in the “mind” at all levels, while  
> “consciousness” refers predominantly to our awareness of mental  
> processes at the “conscious mind” level.  With extended effort,  
> consciousness is able to access some of the mental processes at the  
> “preconscious mind” level.  With greater effort, and some  
> professional  help, we might access some of the mental processes at  
> the “unconscious mind” level.
>
> An example is provided by Martin’s email about his mathematics  
> deliberations.  As he writes, it was when he awoke that he  
> experienced further insight to his maths problem – after  
> consideration of Gregg and Linda’s comments.  This suggests (to me  
> the reductionist) that his non-consciousness “unconscious mind”  
> mental processes were at work assisting his consciouness “conscious  
> mind” to evolve a resolution.
>
> Sometimes it seems to me that humanities-type writing includes  
> dependence upon unstated assumptions and an unclearly defined use of  
> words.  It might be prudent to consider such as to do so may not be  
> in the best interests of The TOK Society’s efforts.
>
> Just in case Wittgenstein is right!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Waldemar
>
> Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD
> (Perseveret et Percipiunt)
> 503.631.8044
>
> Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. (A Einstein)
>
>> On Nov 16, 2018, at 6:49 AM, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx  
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, Nancy.
>>
>> To me, this is a great topic for our list. I would be curious to  
>> hear your thoughts on how you define/characterize mental processes  
>> and consciousness.
>>
>> I encourage others to chime in also.
>>
>> I am in the thick of my next book, The Problem of Psychology and  
>> Its Solution. It argues directly that modern empirical/textbook  
>> psychology is anchored to methodological behaviorism, where  
>> behavior is what we measure and mind is the cause or force or  
>> whatever that is inferred. Via the UTUA language game, I am  
>> delineating a new way to define these concepts. I will say here  
>> that the three concepts are very different in the UTUA system.  
>> Mental processes are not synonymous with consciousness in my  
>> language game. Indeed, I see it as crucial that the two are  
>> separated.
>>
>> Warm regards,
>> Gregg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: tree of knowledge system discussion  
>> <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Nancy Link
>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 3:34 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: blog on talking as a behavior or mental process
>>
>> Hi Gregg,
>>
>> I agree completely with what you have said in this blog.
>>
>> I think that the study of mental processes (consciousness)  
>> continues to be seriously disadvantaged because the way that  
>> psychology was initially set up.
>>
>> To the extent that it is seriously studied, it is studied by the  
>> psychotherapists who work with the material of consciousness.
>>
>> Nancy
>>
>> From: tree of knowledge system discussion  
>> <[log in to unmask]  
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Gregg  
>> Henriques <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> Reply-To: tree of knowledge system discussion  
>> <[log in to unmask]  
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> Date: Thursday, November 15, 2018 at 10:43 AM
>> To: "[log in to unmask]  
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>"  
>> <[log in to unmask]  
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> Subject: blog on talking as a behavior or mental process
>>
>> Hi List,
>>   Hope this finds everyone well. I had an exchange yesterday with  
>> Steve Quackenbush on the deep problems with modern empirical  
>> psychology, and it prompted the following short  
>> blog:https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201811_is-2Dtalking-2Dbehavior-2Dor-2Dmental-2Dprocess&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=AOJ_13frMB6kAu2LogJpqs6XFC7orhFcsqFITW-45Ew&e=  
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201811_is-2Dtalking-2Dbehavior-2Dor-2Dmental-2Dprocess&d=DwMFAg&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=OniJrklPJVN62FIay4fbiT4SnefsFPZ6AWAHxi0gG_8&s=Eg23DNnrxK_LcrlLt3OuNNNgFwr_sWrbxVSSQw2KNjg&e=>
>>
>> Best,
>> Gregg
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>
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