This discussion has had me very confused to I asked Scott Evens about a possible scenario that I could see happening related to the robot touch rule. I hope it helps everyone. Ginny Echelberger _____ From: Scott Evans [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 4:35 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: FW: [VADCFLL-L] active touch rule Hi Ginny, In Case 1, the objects are already in scoring position, so any further movement is incidental and not strategic, so they would stay where they are. In Case 2, the objects are unrelated to the robot's current action, so the contact is incidental and not strategic, so nothing would happen. Have a good weekend, Scott Ginny Echelberger wrote: Scott, can you please confirm this rule-our online discussion has many of us very confused and I'd really appreciate just having a ruling from you. How would it apply to this possibility? If the robot delivers the laptop, bike and insulation but gets stuck on the house and happens to be touching the insulation which is touching the laptop and the bike but those items (insulation and bike) are not touching the robot (or any combination of these items) and the driver picked up the robot, what would score and what would be lost? What if the robot goes on another mission and ends up stuck touching any deliverable item that was delivered in previous missions? Thanks, Ginny Echelberger _____ From: First Lego League Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mark FLL Allen Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 1:35 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [VADCFLL-L] active touch rule Nick, This is exactly the situation addressed by the rule changes this year. A robot is by definition active until it is touched whether or not it has stopped. If the robot is still in contact with those items, they are removed from the table. All a team needs to do is back up (for example) to lose contact and then the points would count. Active Robot At the moment the robot is started, it is considered "active" and remains so until you next touch it or touch any model or strategic object it is moving or using. Active Robot Touched * If any models or strategic objects were being strategically moved by the robot at the time of the touch: * Those being moved from Base go back to Base with the robot, eligible for continued use. * Those encountered out of Base are taken out of play (off the field) Best regards, Mark -----Original Message----- From: Swayne, Nick <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 8:18 am Subject: Re: [VADCFLL-L] active touch rule What if the robot delivers the bike/la ptop/insulation and stops? That would make the robot inactive. The kids could retrieve the robot. So long as the scoring items are not attached and remain in a scoring position they should get points - and lose a levy as a penalty. I've seen some teams who would rather take the penalty point deduction than waste time letting the robot drive back to base. Even though I don't agree with the technique, I don't think the rules prohibit it - they just assess penalty points against them for the method. -----Original Message----- From: Steve Scherr [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> ] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:47 PM To: [log in to unmask]; Swayne, Nick Subject: Re: active touch rule I have to agree with Mark. If the robot is still pushing the insulation blocks (or other objects) when the robot or objects are touched, then it is still in contact with them (see Loss of Contact rule) The Active Robot Touched rule, and Q&A Ruling 32 make it clear that the blocks would either be removed from the field (if they contacted the robot out of Base), or returned to Base (if they have been in continuous contact with the robot since it was started). Under this year's rules, no movable object in contact with an active robot when it is touched will stay in place on the field. Steve On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:52:42 -0500, Swayne, Nick <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >Mark, > >I don't think this is the intent of the rule - but I am not a lawyer. > >If the robot does something (like collect the carbon balls) and gets stuck or stops on the field - if the robot is touched and returned to base - those things it had already collected are removed from play and the team gets a penalty. > >If the insulation blocks are in contact with the mat and were simply pushed out - then the robot stops and is retrieved by hand - there should be a penalty but the yellow blocks would remain on the table. > >From: First Lego League Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> ] On Behalf Of Mark FLL Allen >Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:27 AM >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: [VADCFLL-L] active touch rule > >See the answers as I understand the rules below. One other scenario: > >Robot delivers insulation to scoring area but the robot is touched while still in contact. As I understand it there are actually two answers; > >1) Robot contacted the object on the field and moved it to the scoring area. The object(s) are removed by the ref and are out of play. >2) Robot previously brought those objects back to base. If so, those objects are returned to base. > >Does every one agree? > >Best regards, >Mark >-----Original Message----- >From: David Levy <[log in to unmask]> >To: [log in to unmask] >Sent: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 9:53 am >Subject: Re: [VADCFLL-L] active touch rule >Maybe some example scenarios would be appropriate - > >In the "testing the levees challenge" , robot has moved only partially out of base - robot is touched when: > >1) still not yet reached the challenge model (penalty ?) - No penalty. >2) challenge model has been activated , and other end of robot is sitting on the challenge model's activation bar ( penalty ?) No Penalty >3) challenge model has been activated, robot has moved off challenge model's activation bar and 'heading' back ( legal ?) No penalty > >In other missions where the robot has completely left base performed a mission and is returning to base - robot is touched when: >4) robot is completely in base but still rolling ( legal ) Yes - legal >5) robot is partially in base but still rolling ( legal ) Yes - legal >6) robot is partially in base but it is bringing back a scoring object that is on a section of the robot that has not crossed over the home base line. (penalty?) No penalty but the "retrievable" is removed from the table by the ref and is o ut of play. > >thanks >David > >Darlene Pantaleo wrote: >> Normally you can touch the robot while in base, but if you do it while > it is performing a mission, then the mission will not count. The new > rules allow for performing a mission without leaving the base. Sorry > for the confusion. >> Darlene Pantaleo >> Judge Advisor >> Maggie Walker >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 13, 2008, at 2:52 AM, Michael Blanpied wrote: >> >>> Dear Darlene, >>> >>>> The effect of the new rules is on what the robot can do while in >>> base. It does not effect a team's touching the robot except that a >>> mission will not count if done from base (such as the "test the >>> levees" challenge). >>> >>> I'm afraid I don't understand what that last phrase means. Under what >> circumstance would a mission not count? Thanks for clarifying. >>> >>> -- >> Cheers, >>> Mike Blanpied >>> Reston, VA >>> 2006 Nano People #4809 >>> 2007 Power Bunnies #1666 >>> 2008 BLT - Brilliant Lego Team #5013 >> >> ______________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________ To UNSUBSCRIBE or CHANGE YOUR SUBSCRIPTION, please visit https://listserv.jmu.edu/archives/vadcfll-l.html and select "Join or leave the list". If you want to join the VADCFLL-ADMIN-L mailing list - to which FLL administrative announcements will be distributed - visit https://listserv.jmu.edu/archives/vadcfll-admin-l.html and select "Join or leave the list". -- Scott Evans - [log in to unmask] FIRST LEGO League Engineer FIRST : For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology Phone:1-800-871-8326 ext:118, 1-603-666-3906 ext:118, Fax 603-666-0043 http://www.usfirst.org ______________________________________________________________ To UNSUBSCRIBE or CHANGE YOUR SETTINGS, please visit https://listserv.jmu.edu/archives/vadcfll-l.html and select "Join or leave the list". If you want to join the VADCFLL-ADMIN-L mailing list - to which FLL administrative announcements will be distributed - visit https://listserv.jmu.edu/archives/vadcfll-admin-l.html and select "Join or leave the list".