Hi teams! I know that you are excited about being able to identify tournament preferences starting next Tuesday. We had some Game Updates that didn't really address the topic, so I wanted to send out a follow-up to this previous discussion. It is somewhat long and technical, so I want to emphasize that this isn't required reading ;-) Update 26 says to look at the definition of "In' in Rule 37 to understand whether mission models are in a scoring position. [yes, the update has a typo in the rule reference--at least today]), There was a somewhat different discussion last week. Last week I made this statement: "a non-attached basket is not part of the robot." That's not always correct. Actually it is mostly wrong, because it doesn't refer back to the definition of the robot. Rule 10 describes the robot. It is the controller and "anything joined with it by hand (any method, any configuration) which is designed not to separate from it except by hand." Since "any method" may be used to join things to the robot, it's reasonable that there might be things "joined" to the robot that aren't "attached" to the robot. Please note that there is no definition of "attached" in this year's rules (other that the implication from Rule 11 that anything "joined" as part of the robot is described as an "attachment"). Also note that Rule 15, Gravity Test, only applies to Mission Models. The Gravity Test is *not* used to identify whether something is part of the robot. (But team-supplied items that fail a Gravity Test with respect to the robot would definitely be considered to be "joined" as part of the robot...) So there could be a basket-like attachment "mounted" on the robot but not locked-in via LEGO studs or other mechanisms. If the robot were designed so that, under normal operation, that basket-like attachment would not separate from the robot, then it would be considered to be part of the robot by Rule 10. That means that it would not be considered Cargo (Rule 13) and it's not a Strategic Object (Rule 12), so it would not be subject to the Junk Penalty. Teams should be aware that team-supplied objects that are obviously designed to be separated from the robot (e.g. a basket that the robot pushes and can back away from), are *not* part of the robot (Rule 10 again), so they would be Cargo when they are being transported by the robot, and they are Strategic Objects, and they would be subject to the Junk Penalty at the end of the match. There's plenty of room here for creativity and strategic decisions by FLL teams. And, if there's ever a question, team members are welcomed and encouraged to discuss with tournament referees why they think that the Rules and Updates show why item xyz should be considered as part of the robot (or to discuss any other area where they don't understand a ruling or scoring decision.) Steve Scherr VA/DC FLL Advisor P.S. If you are wondering, Mission Models are never part of the robot (Rule 14, bullet 4), even if they look like they might be "joined" to the robot in the same fashion as a team-supplied item. The Junk Penalty does not apply to Mission Models anyway. On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 6:36 PM, VA/DC Referee Advisor <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > I've been having a side conversation on this topics with some other senior > referees--it's very interesting. > As others have said, to Paul's original question--yes, teams may build a > basket or other carrying device and use it. > > As Brian noted, a "basket attachment" attached to the robot (Rules 10 & > 11) is part of the robot and is not a strategic object. > > > Here's my thinking-- > Cargo items (Rule 13) are anything that the robot has with it for > transport or release. > A non-attached basket is not part of the robot, and would be cargo while > the robot is transporting it. > > > Strategic Objects (Rule 12) are objects supplied by the team, but are not > part of the robot. > It's clear to me that a non-attached basket is a strategic object--it's > supplied by the team, and isn't part of the robot. > > My opinion at this time is that the Junk Penalty applies to all strategic > objects outside Base, including objects that are Cargo. > > It's one of the strategic choices that teams get to make--is it worthwhile > to take the penalty in order to get the benefit of using a strategic > object, or is there some other way to accomplish team goals without using > it. > > > Steve Scherr > VA/DC FLL Referee Advisor > > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE or CHANGE your settings, please visit https://listserv.jmu.edu/archives/vadcfll-l.html and select "Join or leave the list". -- VADCFLL administrative announcements are sent via VADCFLL-ANNOUNCEMENTS-L. Visit https://listserv.jmu.edu/archives/vadcfll-ANNOUNCEMENTS-l.html to subscribe.