Reading this discussion reminded me of Yuval Harari’s “Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind.” Here’s a quick snapshot through his TEDtalk: https://www.ted.com/talks/yuval_noah_harari_what_explains_the_rise_of_humans/transcript#t-54759 I recommend it if you haven’t read it; there seems to be many connections between his narrative and that of ToK.

I find myself saying yes to everyone’s points. Yes, we have had, and continue to have, gross injustices across the board that we need to own up to and remedy. And, at the same time, as Harari points out, the history of humankind is one of vast groups of individuals cooperating with one another (tribes) to create both growth and progress within those groups as well as injustice and destruction against other groups (tribes). The side you land on depends, in part, on your “group” and the shared narrative within it.

To me, I think there are two conversations being played out in Brooks’ article. One conversation is about what is, coming from a pure amoral analysis. The other conversation is about what ought to be, which is more firmly about morality, value systems, and shared beliefs. It’s important to be able to talk about the concept and process of tribalism – with its many advantages and disadvantages – from an amoral, scientific perspective, and then to separately be able to talk about the various justification systems (including moral systems) that arise from tribalism, along with their various advantages and disadvantages. When the two get blended together in an unsophisticated way, it turns tribalism into a moral concept, something seen as fairly negative in today’s current political/social discussion. I don’t think the process of tribalism itself ought to be viewed through a moral lens, though the justification systems that arise from it are fair game. Just my two cents.

Thanks,

Jason

From: tree of knowledge system discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Darcia Narvaez
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2018 11:55 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Interesting David Brooks Article

I appreciate Jason's sentiments. We have to keep in mind that the USA was born and bred on wealthy white male supremacism. I think it is hard to see it from the inside but it continues with the assumptions that the Western view is superior to other ways of thinking/being.

Poor whites also experience the economic injustices of a system tilted toward the top (see David Cay Johnston's work, e.g., https://www.amazon.com/Free-Lunch-Wealthiest-Themselves-Government/dp/1591842484/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1514997734&sr=1-3&keywords=david+cay+johnston+books)--now made worse with the GOP tax bill.

Poor whites have been encouraged by the white elites to look down upon blacks and others (see White Trash by Nancy Isenberg: https://www.amazon.com/White-Trash-400-Year-History-America/dp/0670785970)

Blacks continue to be mistreated--lynchings continued to the 1950s (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_10?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=slavery+by+another+name+by+douglas+blackmon&sprefix=slavery+by%2Cstripbooks%2C146&crid=3P4M06Q5A28SJ)

But not much has changed with the easy shooting of males by police officers who are exonerated when they say they are "afraid for their lives."

Here is an NYT piece discussing a little about the black experience today: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/02/opinion/erica-garner-black-families.html?_r=0

Not to forget native Americans, here is a recent history of the genocide carried out against native peoples in California: https://www.amazon.com/American-Genocide-California-Catastrophe-1846-1873/dp/0300230699/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1514997787&sr=1-1&keywords=american+genocide

Lincoln's Homestead Act was to get whites to take over the lands of natives (considered non human) across the country; land grant universities were built on native lands.

Virtually everywhere you look, the USA is built on injustice. And this is not to mention the vast destruction of the other-than-human.

We have to face the tough facts if we are going to heal ourselves.

Darcia

On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 7:45 PM, nysa71 <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Gregg,

I agree that some "overshoot" and it is a complicated dialectic. On top of this, there are serious economic problems, as well, which certainly only exacerbate the other problems you listed.

`Jason Bessey

On Tuesday, January 2, 2018, 4:04:42 PM EST, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Jason,

I don’t disagree that privilege is an important concept to reflect on. I have led many diversity workshops and am well-versed in unpacking white male privilege. It is important to do so and to be “woke” to these dynamics. And, as you are suggesting, when I look across the landscape at large, I see many folks who are woefully unaware of such dynamics, which is a problem and one that I have been aware of and committed to sense the late 1980s when I became immersed in feminism.

However, IMO, there are also important pockets with certain left leaning circles (e.g., social science/humanities departments in the academy to name one such circle) that the emphasis and framing “overshoots,” and everything becomes focused on the embodiment of race, maleness, and heteronormativity in a socially constructed milieu.

I see it as a complicated dialectic.

Best,

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: nysa71
Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 3:23 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Interesting David Brooks Article

Gregg,

I think the key is simply recognizing that there are some things that we as "white males" won't have to deal with because of being "white" and "male". That's the privilege.

An example that comes to mind is when my former sister-in-law went for a job interview at a local paper mill several years ago. She and my brother had recently had a child. The interviewer asked her, "But who's going to watch the baby when your working?" My stunned sister-in-law said, "Um...a daycare provider or her father".

A man would never have to worry about being asked such a ridiculous and patronizing (and certainly illegal!) question. Just one "male privilege" we have.

I don't think I have to worry nearly as much about police brutality as a black person does. That's one example of my "white privilege".

It's not recognizing these sorts of things which contributes to an oppressive system of "the Other". We can't fix problems we don't recognize.

~ Jason Bessey

On Tuesday, January 2, 2018, 1:42:48 PM EST, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

I guess the issue is whether the point regarding oppression is being minimized by Brooks or if it is being exaggerated by others.

I certainly find myself in contexts in the university academy where I feel folks are over-emphasizing white male oppression.

And it is too easy for someone to hear me voice that and then state that I must be saying that because I am a privileged white male and am blinded by self-serving motives (an accusation that has been leveled against me).

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: nysa71
Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 1:36 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Interesting David Brooks Article

Gregg,

I'm all for heterodoxy. It's very much needed. And nothing wrong with different political viewpoints. But I was criticizing Brooke's minimization of oppression, and his whole strawman that identifying oppression necessarily means that one's "goodness is secure", that one has "virtue without obligation", and that "nothing is one's fault". (Just because someone is "oppressed" doesn't mean they can't be a bad, non-virtuous person who has a lot of things happen to them that is their fault.)

I found it to be a very self-serving article by a neoliberal, white male-privileged media elitist who down-played neo-liberalism, white male privilege, and media elitism and the contributions these things make to the very systemic and institutional oppression that he's minimizing.

Indeed, it's ironic that he was engaging in a "tribalism" of his own by so easily criticizing the "oppressed herd" without considering the possibility that he himself could be part of the "oppressor herd".

~ Jason

On Tuesday, January 2, 2018, 12:44:02 PM EST, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Jason,

You don’t see any validity to his point?

I find myself resonating with it. I am a member of the Heterodox Academy (https://heterodoxacademy.org/), which is concerned with the lack of political viewpoint diversity in the academy.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: nysa71
Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 11:51 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Interesting David Brooks Article

"The easiest way to do that is to tell a tribal oppressor/oppressed story and build your own innocence on your status as victim. Just about everybody can find a personal victim story. Once you’ve identified your herd’s oppressor — the neoliberal order, the media elite, white males, whatever — your goodness is secure. You have virtue without obligation. Nothing is your fault."

Well, we do in fact live in a world of oppression, though it's more "top vs down" than "left vs. right". How convenient, though, that that would be minimized by a white male media elitist and neoliberal apologist. I guess that way, he can have virtue without obligation and nothing is the fault of his herd.

~ Jason Bessey

On Tuesday, January 2, 2018, 10:47:17 AM EST, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

I found this to be a thoughtful article by David Brooks. I find my own life mission oriented toward contributing to conversation and visions having to do with (re)constructing a broader, deeper, wiser global worldview.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/01/opinion/the-retreat-to-tribalism.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region

Best,

Gregg

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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Darcia Narvaez (DAR-sha narv-EYES)
Professor of Psychology, 118 Haggar Hall, University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame IN 46556 USA

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