I found myself vibrating in reaction to Pepper's characterization of mysticism as an emotional root metaphor that ultimately destroys itself in its focus on unity or "oneness" of all things.

Would the more accurate phrasing be: "Mysticism's emphasis on the experiential acceptance of oneness ultimately leads to the transcendence of the need for root metaphors and world hypotheses"?

I am reminded of the scene in Star Wars: A New Hope, when a commander belittles Darth Vader for believing in an ancient religion, and then is promptly overwhelmed by Vader's demonstration of the "force." The other example is Ben Kenobi's famous, "These are not the droids you are looking for." I believe science-minded individuals are often literal in their processing style, and are eager to deny the reality of what is simply inefficient to explain through logical positivist methods of inquiry and verbal sentences. They are also turned off by the most comical or outrageous examples of the industry of mysticism, which is as complex and riddled with hierarchy, agenda, and discrepancy in mastery as the medical and scientific industries.

I think many scientists, psychologists, philosophers unknowingly become funneled into a form of sensory deprivation as a result of continuous saturation of reading, writing, computer screens, office dwelling, and the professional pressure to be able to explain everything through the scientific lens. Or, per the brief discussion of traits, are simply born with limited capacity to do what the mystic naturally excels at. For example, an R1 acoustics professor does not suddenly pick up guitar for the first time and make sounds that influence others effectively, and likewise it is impossible to say whether the professional athlete is the better master of physical reality versus the professional physicist.

However, Pepper is correct in the sense that mysticism does seem to "vanish" at the higher levels, as the verbal dialogue that occurs is as arcane to the uninitiated as the one we are having here, and the experiential non-verbal exchanges, which are the emphasis of mysticism, would be nearly impossible for the non-mystic to track.

Freud identified this problem in his opening to Civilization and Its Discontents, in which he describes his inability to really comprehend the ineffable "oceanic" feeling of oneness that his friend and others have described to him. Freud writes:

"The views expressed by the friend whom I so much honour, and who himself once praised the magic of illusion in a poem, caused me no small difficulty. I cannot discover this ‘oceanic’ feeling in myself. It is not easy to deal scientifically with feelings. One can attempt to describe their physiological signs. Where this is not possible — and I am afraid that the oceanic feeling too will defy this kind of characterization — nothing remains but to fall back on the ideational content which is most readily associated with the feeling."

I believe that Gregg's model has the potential to alleviate the tension by showing that mysticism is the neurological refinement of experiential consciousness, whereas language-based world hypotheses, like Gregg's own UT, are the refinement of the justification systems in private self-consciousness. Bio-feedback, from my vantage point, seems to be the best non-invasive pragmatic marriage between mysticism and science. Thus when I read Pepper discussing animism and mysticism, it reads to me almost like, "Soccer does have a ball, goals, and a point system, but it doesn't have racquets, so it's not the best sport because we need something to do with all these racquets we've made." The racquets being a metaphor for a private narrating system that compulsively organizes experiential reality into socially justifiable narratives.

It continues to be a delight to engage in these discussions!

-Chance

On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 6:57 PM, Darcia Narvaez <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Since I don't think I can attach things, the best thing to do is go to this page at my website on the evolved nest, a transdisciplinary focus. You can download papers there. My 2014 book, Neurobiology..., covers most of what I mentioned. If there is something specific you want to know, let me know.

https://www3.nd.edu/~dnarvaez/EDST.htm

Darcia
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 4:40 PM, [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Darcia:

Could/would you share a reference or references on:
Humans are even more epigenetically shaped than any other animal, including temperament which is shaped by gestational experience, birth experience and caregiver treatment in the first days, weeks and months (temperament is typically measured first at 4 months of age--LOTS has happened before that). Plus there's epigenetic inheritance from the experience of parents and grandparents. So what is called "psychological traits" are by and large intergenerationally shaped, experienced-based outcomes, including the wide range of psychopathologies (off the the optimal trajectory of human development when properly supported) that are common today.

Thank you.

Best regards,

Waldemar

Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD
(Perseveret et Percipiunt)
503.631.8044

Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. (A Einstein)
On Jan 29, 2018, at 9:33 AM, Darcia Narvaez <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Gregg, and that brings up another realm of discussion--epigenetics. If we look at Harlow's mistreated monkeys (lacking maternal touch), they were all stress-reactive in similar ways (for which we have neuroscientific explanations now--suboptimally developed HPA, vagal tone, endocrine systems, neurotransmitter systems) from lack of evolved maternal care. Humans are even more epigenetically shaped than any other animal, including temperament which is shaped by gestational experience, birth experience and caregiver treatment in the first days, weeks and months (temperament is typically measured first at 4 months of age--LOTS has happened before that). Plus there's epigenetic inheritance from the experience of parents and grandparents. So what is called "psychological traits" are by and large intergenerationally shaped, experienced-based outcomes, including the wide range of psychopathologies (off the the optimal trajectory of human development when properly supported) that are common today.

Darcia
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
This opens up a whole separate line of inquiry regarding the viability of traits. As such, I will offer just a few points.

Unlike Costa and McCrae and a few others, I am NOT a trait essentialist. However, the idea of traits as temperament, a predisposition to respond a certain way to certain situations clearly has some validity.

For example, trait neuroticism is, to me, a crucial concept. Here is a blog on how I think about. People differ in terms of the sensitivity of the negative affect system. Folks high in TN are more sensitive to being stressed, experience negative affect more intensely and are harder to calm down. Of course, that is not to say that folks can’t change or that what you do doesn’t matter.

But there is a wide variety of differences in the negative emotional reactions to situations and the construct of trait has value in that.

Best,
Gregg

From: tree of knowledge system discussion [mailto:TOK-SOCIETY-L@listserv.jmu.edu] On Behalf Of Jeffery Smith MD
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2018 9:46 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Stephen Pepper's "World Hypotheses"

I strongly support Darcia's point of view. I think that we use a person's name as a hook on which to hang the illusion of consistency across situations and across time. Neither is accurate. One clinical observation is how anxiety problems sometimes resolve over decades. We don't observe that because we assume that any important changes will take place in 12 sessions, or some brief time.In another example, I'm working with a person who was ritualistically abused, but is now 60 and has done a lot of work. Her issues are not mostly those of abuse, but the ordinary problems of growing and adapting to life.

Jeffery Smith
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 9:35 AM, Darcia Narvaez <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Thanks, Steve!

The critiques of contextualism seem weak to me. They don't take into account developmental differences and changes through the lifespan (where some characteristics may be consistent for a time and then shift as the dynamism of development continues).

Further, the implicit assumption of the critique assumes that one can measure meaningful consistencies across time--sure but they are veneers of the dynamism of being a human being (unless a person has been toxically stressed/traumatized and oppressed into being robotic and rigid). Lots of information is lost in trying to categorize things one way or another.

Social cognitive theory of personality offers at least a remedy to thinking about personality consistency: rather than a trait carried situation to situation (as trait theory tends to assume), there is a consistent personality signature in a person by context variability across situations (e.g., extrovert with family, introvert at work).

But a virtuous person responds to each situation appropriately (e.g., with compassion and egolessness). Each situation is different so behavior is different each time. Holistic virtue cannot be measured in a controlled manner, since every situation is different and requires different skills/responses appropriate at that moment.

Darcia
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 9:03 AM, nysa71 <000000c289d6ba14-dmarc-reques [log in to unmask]> wrote:

So would Heraclitus be an example of a Contextualist considering quotes like:

"You could not step twice into the same river."

"Everything changes and nothing stands still."

"All entities move and nothing remains still."

?

~ Jason Bessey

On Sunday, January 28, 2018, 10:28:02 PM EST, Steven Quackenbush <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hello ToK Community,

Attached is the penultimate episode of Stephen Pepper's World Hypotheses.

Included as a special bonus feature is an optional "deleted scene"!

~ Steve Q.

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Professor of Psychology, 118 Haggar Hall, University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame IN 46556 USA
[log in to unmask], 574-631-7835 

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Also see DarciaNarvaez.com

Blog at Psychology Today: Moral Landscapes
Former Editor, Journal of Moral Education
Interviews and Podcasts 
BOOKS: 
Embodied Morality: Protectionism, Engagement and Imagination (Palgrave-Macmillan)
Neurobiology and the Development of Human Morality: Evolution, Culture and Wisdom (Norton; discount: NARVAEZ)
Evolution, Early Experience and Human Development (OUP)
Ancestral Landscapes in Human Evolution (OUP)
Young Child Flourishing: Evolution, Family & Society (OUP)
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CONFERENCE VIDEOS: Sustainable Wisdom: Integrating Indigenous Knowhow for Global Flourishing  
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Darcia Narvaez (DAR-sha narv-EYES)
Professor of Psychology, 118 Haggar Hall, University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame IN 46556 USA[log in to unmask], 574-631-7835 

My University Website 

Also see DarciaNarvaez.com

Blog at Psychology Today: Moral Landscapes
Former Editor, Journal of Moral Education
Interviews and Podcasts 
BOOKS: 
Embodied Morality: Protectionism, Engagement and Imagination (Palgrave-Macmillan)
Neurobiology and the Development of Human Morality: Evolution, Culture and Wisdom (Norton; discount: NARVAEZ)
Evolution, Early Experience and Human Development (OUP)
Ancestral Landscapes in Human Evolution (OUP)
Young Child Flourishing: Evolution, Family & Society (OUP)
amazon.com/author/darcianarvaez
Self, Motivation and Virtue Project 
CONFERENCE VIDEOS: Sustainable Wisdom: Integrating Indigenous Knowhow for Global Flourishing  
Families for Conscious Living
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Darcia Narvaez (DAR-sha narv-EYES)
Professor of Psychology, 118 Haggar Hall, University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame IN 46556 USA[log in to unmask], 574-631-7835 

My University Website 

Also see DarciaNarvaez.com

Blog at Psychology Today: Moral Landscapes
Former Editor, Journal of Moral Education
Interviews and Podcasts 
BOOKS: 
Embodied Morality: Protectionism, Engagement and Imagination (Palgrave-Macmillan)
Neurobiology and the Development of Human Morality: Evolution, Culture and Wisdom (Norton; discount: NARVAEZ)
Evolution, Early Experience and Human Development (OUP)
Ancestral Landscapes in Human Evolution (OUP)
Young Child Flourishing: Evolution, Family & Society (OUP)
amazon.com/author/darcianarvaez
Self, Motivation and Virtue Project 
CONFERENCE VIDEOS: Sustainable Wisdom: Integrating Indigenous Knowhow for Global Flourishing  
Families for Conscious Living
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