Gregg, thank you for that thoughtful reply. As you might expect, I will continue to maintain my position that consciousness is dictated by factors far beyond the 'nuts and bolts' of the brain mechanisms, even as sophisticated and intriguing as P3 wave functions. Don't get me wrong, we need to know about such processes because as far as I am concerned, in order to get at the outofthebox properties we need to know how the stuff in the box works. My point is that the stuff in the box should not be the end but the beginning of further understanding of how we link to the Singularity. I have used the example of Piaget's stages of development, having to crawl before we walk as an example of two ways of thinking about the same phenomenon. On the one hand, it is a heuristic for monitoring development, but on the other, it is a way of understanding how in the bigger picture we behave in ways that are either consistent with our epigenetic 'mission' for obtaining marks from the environment for future adaptations. This is why, for example, the endocrine system, which dictates the length and depth of the various phases of the life cycle, is under epigenetic control. So to delve into that a bit more deeply to exemplify what I am saying, as you know metabolic syndrome- obesity, hyptertension- is being intensively studied because of its affect on the populus these days. Starving the mother rat during the last half of pregnancy will cause metabolic syndrome in the offspring, but I don't think that's what the animal is actually adapting to evolutionarily. One of the other effects of the starvation is being small for gestational age, which seems like 'duh, of course, given that the fetus is deprived of food in utero', so it is largely overlooked. However, as a consequence of being born small the offspring experiences premature sexual maturation, which is what I think is actually being selected for......the animal hastening its entry into the next environment, which is 'expected' to be more food rich. The same thing happens in the slime mold Dictyostelium, which will switch from its free swimming amoeboid form to a sessile colonial form as a function of food abundance. The common denominator for both the precocious puberty in the rat and the switching of forms in the slime mold is the cytoskeleton sensing the food abundance in the environment through the Target of Rapamycin gene, which determines the state of the cell. My point is that the big picture view provides a way of understanding the causal relationships, whereas the in between phenotypes like obesity and hypertension are misleading......they are the consequence of premature aging and senescence, which are in service to the precocious puberty that gets you to the next environment quicker, that being where the organism began evolutionarily and logically. Another example is gastrulation, the step in embryogenesis when the mesoderm (the layer between the endoderm and ectoderm) is introduced into the embryo. Lewis Wolpert has famously said that "It is not birth, marriage, or death, but gastrulation which is truly the most important time in your life." He based that on the significant role of the mesoderm in forming the embryo of vertebrates. What he did not know then (and still may/not know) is that the genes that determine gastrulation are under epigenetic control. So here again, the environment is having a profound effect on development, homeostasis, health, physical and mental alike. My point is that whatever is controlling P3 waves, for example, has ultimately evolved under the egis of the Singularity. So it behooves us to think big about these processes or fail to understand their true nature IMO. To do otherwise is to fail to understand the significance of what is being observed. This may/not be of interest in practice, but I maintain that it should be for the sake of authenticity.

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 5:44 AM, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

John,

  As you know, I consider your perspective novel and valuable, and I have grown in my appreciation for thinking of myself as a whole, physiologically coordinated entity. I also find the frame you offer about Phenotypes as agents fascinating and love the idea that the cell is engaged in niche construction and have realized that communication is another facet to what I have generally framed as information processing. So, I, for one, have been very much enriched by the “metaphysical scheme” you are offering. More to the point here, I agree that thinking about consciousness along a cosmic continuum is interesting. And associating consciousness with awareness is valuable.  

 

  All that said, I also will reiterate that there is what might be called the phenomena of interest, which in this case (at least in part) is subjectivity, the first person experience of being, the perceptual consciousness of my waking self, the theater of experience, and so forth. I do see how your position offers potentially interesting frames on this topic, but I don’t really see how it addresses the topic of subjectivity/perceptual conscious experience directly.

 

  First and foremost, IMO, you must deal with the brain and the brain identity issue. That is, states of perceptual consciousness in humans (and presumably animals—see conversation I had with Jason Bessey) correspond to brain activity. No brain activity, no perceptual consciousness. To be more concrete about this, consider Dahaene’s work (in the book, Consciousness and the Brain), who finds strong evidence for a “P3” wave function being associated with conscious access. Conscious access is operationally defined as an individual being able to consciously report that they have seen a phenomena. The P3 wave refers to a wave of electrical activity that pings back and forth for 300 milliseconds between the parietal and pre-frontal lobes. He has a number of experimental angles (mostly subliminal perception models) that show that this wave is closely connected with whether or not someone actually experiences a phenomena on their subjective field. That to me is interesting, I bring it up because it is a series of investigations on the phenomena of interest, i.e., the human subjective experience of being. That, BTW, is a different conception of consciousness than awareness per se (right?). I agree that from a bottom up perspective that you have, we should consider a global conception of awareness as an interesting continuum concept. But cellular awareness is different than human conscious access point associated with the P3 ignition wave.

 

  So, I guess what I am saying is that I agree that you offer a very interesting and important perspective on this. And you may well have “found the reductive line” that helps frame perceptual consciousness. However, until one solves/resolves the brain-subjectivity relation, I think the hard problem remains essentially unsolved.


Best,
Gregg

 

   

 

From: tree of knowledge system discussion [mailto:TOK-SOCIETY-L@listserv.jmu.edu] On Behalf Of JOHN TORDAY
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 10:31 AM


To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: FW: science practice issues

 

One additional thought regarding the idea of consciousness all the way down to the single-celled state (and beyond, to the Singularity). I have suggested that the unicell may have been the first Niche Construction (see attached), i.e. that the endogenization of the environment began with the unicellular state, and has never ceased to be the way in which life and the environment have engaged one another. If this is correct, then by internalizing all of existence (or at least that which is/was relevant to our existence) is Consciousness in the sense that the material and etherial are derived from the Singularity/Big Bang. In other words, our entire existence and raison d'etre are founded in the animization of the inanimate. That starts and ends with the unicellular state, so why not consider the likelihood that consciousness is pervasive throughout the organism, but only overtly expresses itself in discourse? After all, we consider 'body language' in our interactions, for example. I realize that this way of thinking about consciousness may seem to complicate the way a psychologist thinks about a patient, but in that context, I have long thought that my teaching pediatricians becoming neonatologists (pediatricians who care for preterm newborns) in research methods has helped in their way of seeing their patients as more than just 'the sum of their parts'. By analogy, understanding that consciousness transcends the mundane is of value in practicing clinical psychology, if  i may. 

 

On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 4:26 PM, JOHN TORDAY <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Gregg, I can understand your reservations about the cell being conscious, but if you think of our physiology as a continuum, why wouldn't you consider that to be the case? When we are formed embryologically, we start from a unicellular state (the zygote), which gives rise to the 200+ different cell types we are composed of. At each step of embryogenesis the cells are sensing their 'being' through homeostasis, culminating in the offspring. Jesse Roth showed back in the 80's that insulin is produced by neurons, for example, whereas we usually think of it being produced by the beta islet cells of the pancreas......all the cells of the body have the same genetic make-up, it's just that some do specialized things. And there's evidence of synchronized calcium flow between liver cells (Wu D, Jia Y. Mean-field coupling of calcium oscillations in a multicellular system of rat hepatocytes. Biophys Chem. 2007 Feb;125(2-3):247-53) supporting the idea that all cells are 'aware' of their surroundings, not just neurons. As for this being relevant to the 'hard problem', as I have said before, the microtubules of the brain that Penrose has said are the basis for integrated thought are present in the cells of the visceral organs too. So when neuroendocrine hormones are produced in the brain (endorphins, oxytocin) they act on the brain and body to integrate and synchronize the calcium signals (Torday JS. Pleiotropy, the physiologic basis for biologic fields. Prog Biophys Mol Biol. 2018 Feb 9), which may be the 'solution' to the hard problem(?). I consider this idea to be of importance because it provides a way to understand consciousness as derivative of the Cosmic Consciousness of the Singularity, i.e. this is why we believe that there is something greater than ourselves that may/not be what we usually think of as religion. As such that relationship is of importance in considering the basis for normal v abnormal psychology in the big picture. Hope that was helpful.....j

 

On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 10:30 AM, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

John,

Thanks for sharing these thoughts. As a function of our conversations, I definitely think of myself more as a “physiological whole.” As we have discussed, I love the idea of the brain as being a sort of “inverted skin” and that frees up some interesting thinking in me about how the brain is connected into the body. I am also internalizing more and more the idea of a continuum of awareness and thinking of biology as being a self-referential/self-organizing awareness entity.

 

As we have discussed, though, I do continue to struggle with issues of terminology and what the terms we are using reference. Generally speaking, when I am using the term consciousness, I am using it differently than you (I think). I am using it as the “theater of experience” that I have. It is my first person view of the world. Here is one diagram that captures what I mean:

 

 

The Yellow part is what I am referring to. It consists of sensory/perceptual inputs, drives and urges, emotionally charged action motives, imaginal wonderings (simulated actions), and narrative thought, which is the home of my explicit self-consciousness. That is the deliberative part of me that decides to write this email. When I go to sleep, the lights go out on that yellow part, and then they flicker on and off when I dream. If I could engage in lucid dreaming, then my self-conscious portion would also come on line.

 

Anyway, if all the cells in my body are conscious in the sense you are using the term, then clearly we are talking about different phenomena. They may well be related. Cell-cell communication and awareness “accumulation” (if you will pardon the phrase) may well be intimately connected to what allows me to have conscious experience. But an important clue or frame is very different than explaining the hard problem, right?


Best,

Gregg

 

 

From: tree of knowledge system discussion [mailto:TOK-SOCIETY-L@listserv.jmu.edu] On Behalf Of JOHN TORDAY
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 10:59 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: FW: science practice issues

 

Gregg, thank you for sharing your deep thoughts on the science and practice of psychology. With all humility, I currently wonder whether you and I are barking up the same tree (ultimately) with regard to understanding physiology as the common denominator for both mind and body. That is to say, if we don't understand the 'big picture' central theory of what life constitutes, then when things go awry we use ad hoc methods rather than addressing the problem at its root cause- that's true in both medicine and psychology. So in that spirit I share a manuscript submitted for publication for sharing my thoughts about 'the great scheme of things'. Perhaps this is too metaphysical for the ToK/List, but I thought the time may have come to run it up the flagpole.....

 

On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 1:00 PM, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

  Well, John, funny you should raise the issue of big picture stuff and the state of mental health and the relationship between science and practice. It has been very much on my mind, as I have been engaged in a spirited debate with a number of folks on this issue. The debate has been triggered by APA treatment guidelines for PTSD. The APA posted them last year, and there was a strong push to repeal them. Although the push generated a petition signed by almost 50,000 folks, and a petition in support of the guidelines only generated 3,500, yesterday the guidelines were upheld.

 

I signed neither petition and in many ways sit in a unique position relative to the debate. Here are some musings if you want to get a flavor. As with any complicated guild/institution, the issues are very complicated once you start getting into the specifics of the debate.

 

Anyway, this is just food for thought

 

Best,

Gregg

 

 

From: Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 3:56 PM
To: [log in to unmask]twu.edu
Subject: science practice issues

 

HI Unified Psych list,

 

I thought I would share with this list that I have been musing a lot about the whole science-practice thing lately. I spent the day sketching out the various pieces of the puzzle as I see them and as they have been floating around in my head. This is a major project and what I am sharing is more like a brainstorm than any specific argument. But I decided to share it here to let others know how I am kicking things around.

 

Fundamentally, I am trying to point out a couple of things.

 

First, there are at least three elements always going on in the science-practice divide. There is the (1) practice element (what one is doing in the clinic room), there is the (2) research element (what empirical studies have been done) and there is one’s (3) conceptual scheme that links the two and provides the basic interpretive frame for both.

 

Virtually ALL of my attention in my thinking and work is on the last part. That is, my mission has been to develop a conceptual scheme that is both up to the task of practice and assimilate and integrates research in a cumulative and workable manner. The Unified Theory/Unified Approach framework I operate from is the sense-making system I use for both science and practice.

 

In wrestling with the guideline debate, I keep coming back to the question, What is the larger conceptual scheme that the psychologist is operating off of that justifies the application of research (or not) in the specific instance of them treating a particular individual in a particular context?

 

I have been completely struck by the complete absence of this element in the PTSD Guidelines. Indeed, this is why I don’t think they are well-characterized as guidelines, but instead are essentially a literature review.  

 

The other thing that has launched into my consciousness in this debate is that I differentiate between levels of intervention and specifically between counseling, psychotherapy, and psychological treatment. I share this distinction in various ways and various times with my students, but it has emerged as important in this debate as I have dialogued with many folks about it. The attached document offers some reflections on such distinctions. The short of it is that when folks are dealing with full blown mental disorders, such that it is pretty clear that the disorder is a major problem rather than a symptom of the problem, then we do need a more structured, active, systematic approach, IMO. For example, when a client is in the midst of a MDD of moderate-to-severe levels, there are definitely things that NEED TO BE DONE. The situation is much less prescribed when dealing with adjustment disorder with depressed mood into MDD mild.

 

Another thing that this highlighted is that I do believe I am at a place where I am ready to delineate my general approach to psychotherapy with folks who I would classify as falling in the neurotic cluster (clinically sig negative affect, relational identity problems, seeking psychotherapy but not well-characterized by a full blown mental disorder…that is, an depressed/discouraged/anxious/low resilient/low self-esteem/isolated person). This starts with my Well-being check up system, and then leads into shared understanding of focus for enhancing adaptive living.

 

What is needed in next steps to dance with the conventual system is to systematize this approach, test it and show that it at least gets the normal standard good results of a bona fide approach and then have that be the control condition against which other conditions are measured. I acknowledge that a part of me resists this both because of the work (I am dispositionally more of a theorist than researcher) and I feel that a principled approach to treatment that is grounded in the best available evidence is all the justification that is needed for the approach.

 

I am also thinking that this general bona fide psychotherapy would not only be used for the neurotic cluster. But rather the vision I have is that it would become the control condition relative to specific psychological treatments for specific problems. If someone could beat my generic, principled approach to psychotherapy in a specified psychological treatment for a specific condition (e.g., bulimia, PTSD, OCD) then we could have high confidence that it was effective relative to effective practitioners general approach.  This, of course, points out one of the great weaknesses of ESTs. What they mean has everything to do with what they have been compared to. However, that is often not clear or not strong and thus the meaning of effect sizes are definitely up for debate in terms of what they should guide an experienced clinician to do. If though, as psychological treatment system could systematically outperform a generic bona fide principled psychotherapy, then I would be impressed and keen on learning it.

 

Well, that is how I have spent my Saturday. Perhaps folks less obsessed with our field are actually getting out and having fun 😊.

 

Please share thoughts if you have them.


Best,

Gregg

 

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