Chance, great question, and of course challenging to answer since what I am talking about is unconventional, but I'll attempt an answer because I think that it is at the core of 'The Hard Problem'. When we meditate, physiologic stress is reduced due to decreased catecholamine production, in turn reducing oxygenation of cells and a sense of being relaxed and more, depending upon the individual. And some aspects of that can be brought about through breathing patters and other associations with the physiologic reduction in stress 'on demand'. Knowing the intermediate physiologic steps in that process would aid in exploiting it further, particularly since it is part of the 'fight or flight' mechanism in my reduction of the evolution of endothermy. In the context of the 'hard' problem, I think that it's the relationship between the visceral and CNS levels that constitutes the process of consciousness since they co-evolved. So doing an MRI on someone exposed to some sensory input, and looking below the neck as well as above might reveal interrelationships that generate consciousness. I'm thinking of how when I've eaten a heavy meal before going to sleep, I have the strangest dreams, which I assume are brought about by the rumblings in my GI tract.....which is then relevant to Porges's Polyvagal Theory. As an aside, in trying to write a paper on Consciousness I have been reading the theory that Hameroff and Penrose have put forth, which is largely based on the integrative effect of the cytoskeleton on brain function. I like the idea, but I think they have come up short since all cells have a cytoskeleton, and since the cytoskeleton determines the state of the cell- homeostatic, mitotic or meiotic, as the 'consciousness' of the cell, in the aggregate it is the cross-talk between the visceral and CNS microtubules that are the determinant of consciousness, not just the brain......I think of the unicellular organism, which is also conscious since it generates calcium fluxes in response to food, for example. In that case there is unequivocal integration of 'body and mind', by definition, and amoebae are known to habituate, for example. Hope this reply was helpful. P.S. If we could only parse out the associations that Proust expresses in his 'Remembrance of Things Past'! On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 4:21 PM, Chance McDermott <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Hi John, > > I’m curious about a layman example of the how the nuanced view of > associative learning you describe would differ from the conventional > understanding. For example, I was taught a Pavlovian classical > conditioning view of cellular learning. > > Jason, I’m also curious about the monetary system you’re talking about, > as my initial reaction was “maybe it’s the ‘smartest way,’ but what is it’s > popularity potential amidst a competitive and chaotic crypto environment. > > Best wishes! > > -Chance > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 3, 2018, at 8:48 AM, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > John, > This is cool. On thought about word usage. I think that much scientific > work is involved in getting the basic description right. It might not be > experimentally tested, which is another layer, but I would say that much > of the ToK is about getting the right description down. Of course, if there > are ways of achiveving experimental angles, all the better in terms of our > depth of knowledge and confidence. > > G > > > Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: JOHN TORDAY <[log in to unmask]> > Date: 3/1/18 5:21 AM (GMT-07:00) > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: The evolution of associative learning: A factor in the > Cambrian explosion > > Hello ToKers, I wanted to comment on Jason Bessey's post regarding the > paper on the evolution of associative learning by way of 'constructive > criticism'. On the one hand, the paper is a well developed hypothesis > *describing* the putative evolution of a key trait in vertebrate > evolution. On the other hand, I don't know how to test it scientifically, > which is essential to evidence-based knowledge. Given that the paper > appeared in a 'theory-based Journal', and that Darwinian evolution assumes > random mutations, the authors weren't held to account for the mechanism > involved other than to cite Baldwin or West-Eberhard. And so as not to > sound negative, I have alternatively considered the fundamental > interrelationship between my hypothesis regarding the evolution of warm > bloodedness (endothermy/homeothermy) and Stephen Porges's Polyvagal Theory > (see attached). Both have in common the role of physiologic stress causing > both the evolution of control of body temperature and the phylogenetic > changes in the Sympathetic Nervous System, respectively. And suffice it to > say that there are specific molecular homologies between these two major > evolutionary progressions and the effect of environmental stress via the > cholinergic mechanism (I don't want to get bogged down in the alphabet soup > of molecular physiology, so I will respectfully refrain from doing so > unless someone's interested in that?). In short, I am saying that without > such a reduction to cell biology as the basis for phenotypic evolution of > associative learning, the description of the mere description is > counter-productive IMO because it is untestable and unrefutable 'just so > story'. And at this point, as a 'reality check', I would like to point out > that there is a fine balance between the effect of catecholamines on > learning versus the fight or flight mechanism that could be discussed in > the context of physiologic evolution starting with the unicellular organism > and culminating in consciousness as the ultimate selection pressure. > > Again, I use this as a talking point for how to potentially advance our > discussion of the ToK. > > On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 4:34 PM, nysa71 <000000c289d6ba14-dmarc- > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> Hello ToK Society, >> >> Just saw this paper and thought it might be relative to the ToK, >> particularly Behavioral Investment Theory... >> >> The evolution of associative learning: A factor in the Cambrian explosion >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.academia.edu_33012531_The-5Fevolution-5Fof-5Fassociative-5Flearning-5FA-5Ffactor-5Fin-5Fthe-5FCambrian-5Fexplosion&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=SbhkX7eqovB3B50Y5URnK8YQnimPaZB5v99kWLPnNeQ&s=fc_jW0K9JQTgPlK7tVRLalHDXrJ9XCmUe783N7kkSFM&e=> >> >> ~ Jason Bessey >> >> The evolution of associative learning: A factor in the Cambrian explosion >> >> The evolution of associative learning: A factor in the Cambrian explosion >> >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.academia.edu_33012531_The-5Fevolution-5Fof-5Fassociative-5Flearning-5FA-5Ffactor-5Fin-5Fthe-5FCambrian-5Fexplosion&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=SbhkX7eqovB3B50Y5URnK8YQnimPaZB5v99kWLPnNeQ&s=fc_jW0K9JQTgPlK7tVRLalHDXrJ9XCmUe783N7kkSFM&e=> >> >> >> ############################ >> >> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >> following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bi >> n/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >> > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A= > 1 > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A= > 1 > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A= > 1 > ############################ To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1