Gregg,
Yes, MBTI is one of the type theories based on/associated Jung, but certainly not the only one, (e.g., Keirsey's Temperament Sorter, Beebe's 8-function model, & Socionics, come to mind). The latter (socionics) is interesting in the sense that --- though it was influenced by Jung's ideas, as MBTI was --- it developed primarily in the former Soviet Union. The two approaches developed completely independently from each other, and unaware of each other due to the Cold War, and didn't "discover" each other until around the 80s (I believe). So there's an interesting opportunity to compare and contrast the two in the context of some rather unusual historical circumstances. Similarities, for example, might attest (to some extent) to the veracity of Jung's thoughts on type insofar that two groups of people arrived to similar interpretations /conclusions completely independent from each other over the course of decades.
When I think of the "type vs. trait", in a more general sense, I go back to Pepper's World Hypotheses that Steve introduced us to a few months ago. From a "Pepperian" perspective, I think it's ultimately comparing metaphysical apples and oranges. Trait theories strike me as analytical, (Formistic?), while type theories seem implicitly synthetic (Organicist?). Insofar that that is the case, the acceptance of one approach over the other in the academy may ultimately be more of a reflection of the dominant implicit metaphysical assumptions in the academy more than anything else, (i.e., different root metaphors).
~ Jason On Monday, May 21, 2018, 8:28:49 AM EDT, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
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I am glad you shared the post, Jason.
And, yes, that point re type/traits makes more sense—I overlooked that interpretation. I cover MBTI type theory briefly in my personality class and offered some reflections about how it relates to the Big 5. I emphasize that type theory really is trying to get at the attentional filter of consciousness, that is where one’s perceptual theater of consciousness tends to focus its attention. Extraversion in type theory is focusing on the external world; whereas introversion is focusing on the images and ideas in one’s head. This is not what the big five assess, which are individual differences in patterns of thoughts, feelings and actions. Extraversion in Big Five trait land is about positive emotional energy and social gregariousness.
I make the point that I am about a standard deviation and a half to two standard deviations above the norm toward Introversion (i.e., I very much focus on ideas and thoughts running through my mind, often clueless about the weather or the price of gas, as my wife, an extravert, will attest). At the same time, I am generally positively engaged in the world and score about a standard deviation above the mean on big five extraversion (my gregariousness fluctuates enormously depending on the social context and my role). That show how different the concepts are. And I make it to make the point that our language game in psychology is so screwed up---we can’t describe our subject matter, just as the state of physics pre-Newton.
Best,
Gregg
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]>On Behalf Of nysa71
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 8:15 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Jordan Peterson (again)
Gregg,
Thanks for the response. I thought it might be interesting to see a perspective on Peterson from a clinical psychologist. And yes, he should have stuck with his area of expertise.
The irony (at least as I saw it) with a "Jungian trait theorist" was simply that type theory is (most certainly) more associated with Jung than anyone else, and type theory and trait theory have historically been two opposing approaches to personality, (the latter being taken far more seriously in academia).
~ Jason
On Monday, May 21, 2018, 7:24:56 AM EDT, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Thanks for sharing this, Jason.
From the vantage point of an expert-scholar, the blogger is simply clueless about academic psychology. Of course, he may be good in his clinical work, but this blog suggests that he understands essentially nothing about academic psychology at a deep level of sophistication. His description of trait theory is so off base that it is hard to know where to begin. So I will just start where he places it…in social psychology. Any academic worth his salt knows that trait theory is the center of personality psychology (the science of individual differences) and that personality psychology is defined in relationship to (and historically against) social psychology in the context of the person-situation debate. To place trait theory in social psychology is to reveal one’s self as clueless. His comments about traits, about statistical analyses relative to clinical wisdom, and a host of other elements suggest that it should largely be discarded.
That said, I will say that he does get one thing right…Peterson is ametaphysician, and that is where I disagree with him the most. He is attempting to do metaphysics without the map. That is why psychologists (and scientists) generally don’t do (big) metaphysics. It is a dangerous game. But now, post-ToK, we have a way forward 😊.
Finally, I don’t think that a sophisticated view of traits and Jung are all that incompatible. Indeed, any decent, holistic theory of personality needs to account for both character (learned adaptations to situations) and temperament/traits (dispositional ways of responding that individuals reliably differ in).
Best,
Gregg
From: tree of knowledge system discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of nysa71
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2018 10:01 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Jordan Peterson (again)
By the way, I can't help but chuckle a little bit at the irony of atrait theorist who's also a self-described Jungian.
~ Jason Bessey
On Sunday, May 20, 2018, 9:51:00 PM EDT, nysa71 <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
An interesting article on Peterson by a clinical psychologist...
Jordan Peterson, Masculinity, Jung and the Alt-Right.
~ Jason Bessey
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Jordan Peterson, Masculinity, Jung and the Alt-Right.
Jacques Legault, C.Psych
As a clinical psychologist specialized in working with boys and men, people have been asking me why clinical psy...
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On Sunday, May 20, 2018, 1:34:10 PM EDT, Steven Quackenbush <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Thanks Gregg,
“Maps of Meaning” is precisely the sort of text I was looking for...
Sent from my iPad
On May 20, 2018, at 12:39 PM, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Hi Steve,
I had the same sense of 12 Rules and I have not read it. Peterson’s primary scholarly book isMaps of Meaning, which I am attaching here (it is freely available on the web). My assessment is that it is complicated, dense, and more philosophy than science. The first 50 pages offers a nice detailed summary of human perception/motivation/emotion action that lines up directly with my basic BIT formulation. It then makes some leaps into mythology and meaning making that I find interesting, but not compelling. He also has done quite a bit of research on the Big Five (which I know will not endear him to you, but I find the work respectable). I recommend watching some of his class lectures. For what I think is a fair review of him and his message to society,I recommend this article in Esquire.
My position is that he is a respectable intellectual who has an interesting and relatively deep view of clinical-personality theory/psychology. I say relatively deep, and by that I mean compared with the CBT EST clinical science folks (not, for example, relative to Sartre). He has read broadly in philosophy and the varied approaches to clinical-personality psychology. His is a view that results in tensions with the modern academic left view. And that is what we are seeing and that makes it valuable and informative at many levels.
If folks can show me that he is a fraud or a weak minded individual with deeply problematicactual views, I would love to see that and it would change my reaction/assessment. However, what I see is that many people hate what they see as the implications of his ideas and attack him for that. Being attacked for the feared implications of one’s ideas is a very different battle, especially in these times.
And, indeed, this is one of my criticisms of the left. There is this policing of ideas as a function of the double hermeneutic…fears about what ideas might mean and then they are twisted and reacted against. My feelings about Peterson are similar to my feelings about the James Damore Google Memo guy,which I blogged about here. The environment of political polarization does not allow us to have deep conversations about issues pertaining to human nature (i.e., in Chance’s post, archetypes and evolution).
Best,
Gregg
From: tree of knowledge system discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Steven Quackenbush
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2018 12:12 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Jordan Peterson (again)
Jason writes: "People like Peterson take the system as a given (it would seem) and just want to manage the symptoms of what ultimately amounts to a diseased system, instead of getting to the root problem...the system itself."
Well said Jason! Though, for my own reasons, I would make the following qualification: "People like Petersonappear to take the system as a given..." I don't yet know enough about Peterson's considered point of view to pass judgment on his sociopolitical thought (though my suspicions align with Seth Abramson's critique).
Yesterday, I was in Barnes and Noble and perused a copy of Peterson's text: "12 Rules for Life". I was briefly tempted to purchase it (simply for the opportunity assess the sophistication of his moral thinking), but then came to my senses: "If it wasn't for the name of the cover, I would not seriously consider adding this book to my collection. A review of the Table of Contents and nearly a dozen random excerpts suggests a low- to mid-level 'pop philosophy' treatise that plays to the (juvenile?) desires of a certain segment of the reading public."
Still, I recognize the importance of assimilating the ideas of culturally-significant thinkers, even if their ideas are of questionable substance and sophistication. After all, we have to know what we are up against.
So, does anybody have any recommendations regarding the best source(s) to assess the mature thought of Jordan Peterson? [Is the "12 Rules" text representative of his considered point of view?]
Just curious,
~ Steve Q,
On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 11:06 AM, nysa71 <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Gregg: "Unmarried males at the bottom of the hierarchy create social instability. It is almost certainly why monogamy has emerged."
~ That's one way of looking at it. But then, one could also look at hierarchy itself, and consider the possibility thatthat is the root problem of social instability.
From an evolutionary perspective, mating systems have a lot to do with access to and control over resources. So in a patriarchal system --- a particular type of hierarchical system where men dominate --- there emerges disparities in control over resources among men. So polygyny often emerges at the top of the hierarchy, leaving unmarried males at the bottom, followed by social instability.
Pretty much the history of ancient civilization in a nutshell.
So social monogamy emerges, and every male gets one female (like some object to own), and maintains dominance in a little mini-hierarchy in the household, along with all those large-scale justification systems that go along with it.
So some of that social instability is managed. But it still doesn't address the disparities in regards to access to and control over resources, (e.g., systems like feudalism or capitalism), which has historically been in favor of men.
So how would things be different if women had more equal control of an access to resources? It's not without precedent.
Consider the Musuo, where only women own the land, (and strive to keep that ownership equal). Men and women (along with the daughter's children) stay in the mother's household, have "walking marriages", (sometimes lifelong, often times not), share no material resources, and don't even share parental responsibilities, (i.e., the men direct their resources towards their maternal sisters' offspring).
Or some cultures have scarce resources whereby it's not even worth males competing over, leading to a system with high paternity uncertainty where males bequeath their resources to their maternal sisters' sons in their inheritance systems?
The general point here is that the system and context matter, which the likes of Peterson would seem to ignore. And hence other perspectives on social systems have emerged over time --- other possibilities --- such as anarchism and socialism, (both of which, in their intellectual traditions, often went hand-in-hand). People like Peterson take the system as a given (it would seem) and just want to manage the symptoms of what ultimately amounts to a diseased system, instead of getting to the root problem...the system itself.
~ Jason Bessey
On Sunday, May 20, 2018, 10:08:00 AM EDT, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Sure, if you read that article, you will not find him impressive. To me, that article was a great example of how he is a shiny object that gets folks bent out of shape trying to tar him. The point Peterson is making is one of the key points of civilization and war. Unmarried males at the bottom of the hierarchy create social instability. It is almost certainly why monogamy has emerged. Check outRobert Wright’s Nonzero for an analysis of that.
I have no idea what he really believes about “enforced monogamy”. I don’t trust that the snippets from that piece get at his thinking. But, if he really is claiming that this should be a governmental solution, then I agree completely that he has gone off the deep end. That would shift my opinion of him greatly. I strongly suspect that he is talking about society creating norms that support monogamy rather than legal actions. That quote was placed there so that he looks like an ass. That was the clear point of the article.
But, I will say I don’t know him personally. And I definitely don’t share his ultimate worldview. My point, which I stand by as of now, is that he is a serious intellectual who is creating waves which I am glad to witness.
G
From: tree of knowledge system discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of nysa71
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2018 9:58 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Jordan Peterson (again)
I just did a quick Google search of the guy, and here's another article about him from yesterday. Yeah, he doesn't strike me as impressive. (The social media responses at the bottom are hilarious, though!)
Right-wing thought leader Jordan Peterson endorses “enforced monogamy”
~ Jason Bessey
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Right-wing thought leader Jordan Peterson endorses “enforced monogamy”
In a profile published in the New York Times, Peterson reveals his sad agenda yet his defenders call it a "hit job"
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On Sunday, May 20, 2018, 9:42:50 AM EDT, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Thanks, Jason.
Jordan Peterson is a “shiny object” for the academic/identity politic left. He challenges some of their sacred cows, and thus a consequence is that he becomes a hero of the alt right. And that is a reason to be concerned, as anything that energizes the alt right should be concerning.
However, it is crucial to recognize that this framing this is largely function of political polarization rather than what he is actually preaching. I don’t think that Peterson is really any closer to the “real” alt right (i.e., White male supremacy sympathizers) than I am. However, he does believe in the animus and anima archetypes. And he believes that the mythologies of our past were central to human psychology and how we function in the world (i.e., they revealed deep things about our deep natures).
And, he believes that if we are to be healthy in our living, we must realign our psychologies with archetypal mythologies, at least in some way. (Sound somewhat familiar 😊? He is very Jungian). And he thinks that the postmodern view has completely unmoored us in our quest for meaning making.
G
From: tree of knowledge system discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of nysa71
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2018 9:28 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Jordan Peterson (again)
Gregg,
I want to emphasize the word "suspected". I'm not saying anything with a tremendous amount of certainty. I haven't looked too deeply into Peterson's thought. He doesn't really seem that interesting. But I keep hearing his name pop up from time-to-time, and (with the exception of this list serve), it's never positive.
He seems too obsessed with the Soviet Union and a "Red Scare" mentality. He appears to hold great appeal to the alt-right. I get the impression he wants to go back to the "good ol' days" of the 1950s. And dresses it all up in a scholarly-sounding manner that makes him appear to be legitimate and hence appealing (to some).
The link to that series of Tweets that Steve provided just seems to confirm what I've **suspected** about Peterson from what little I've heard of him.
~ Jason
On Sunday, May 20, 2018, 8:03:53 AM EDT, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
This is a fascinating rant against Peterson. I look forward to reading more about “metamodernism”.
Of course, the ToK/UTUA framework is offered as a “post post-modern grand meta-narrative”. I agree with Chance here that any such approach had better integrate archetypal and evolutionary thinking. Will see if metamodernism does that with any degree of sophistication.
Fun stuff, all of it.
Best,
Gregg
From: tree of knowledge system discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Chance McDermott
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2018 11:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Jordan Peterson (again)
Hi Steve, thank you for sharing.
This is my first contact with Abramson. When Abramson explained Peterson as a dangerous demagogue, I found myself wanting him to explain it in clear terms rather than imply it was obvious. I do agree with him that Peterson is winning, and will continue to win, the intellectual and social battleground. My parting initial thought on Abramson is: "Good luck defining a stable post-post modern reality without understanding and accepting evolutionary and analytic psychology."
-Chance
On Sat, May 19, 2018 at 10:25 PM, nysa71 <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Steve,
I love it! It pretty much confirms what I suspected about Peterson....that he's an intellectual fraud. And probably an awful human being, as well.
~ Jason Bessey
On Saturday, May 19, 2018, 10:03:06 PM EDT, Steven Quackenbush <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Those ToK list serve members with an interest in Jordan Peterson might enjoy Seth Abramson's recent twitter thread exploring the cultural significance of the "Jordan Peterson" phenomenon: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__twitter.com_SethAbramson_status_997980968886644736&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=zAFZeVqn_4eCI5-Uz9KSVGH5cRANuYFQES_dIwXG6xc&s=3v3ZRt4rv2etnsjB-JQOzXf5u0zO2b-EuLtAT8vnaTg&e=
At the time of my writing, Seth is still constructing his thread. Here are a few excerpts (from the most recent tweets):
- Tweet 62: "...Peterson offers a dead end that lives more in 1318 than 2018..."
- Tweet 64: "...I fear the choice in America over the next few years will be between embracing a multiversal, five-dimensional post-postmodernism or being stuck—forced to eat—tired, one-dimensional, fundamentally fascist pap that looked new for a second."
- Tweet 69: "My advice (and view): it's okay to agree with Peterson on the first 1% of his worldview—that postmodernism must eventually be supplanted. But the key is to note that what Peterson wants to supplant it with would already have seemed passé by 1690. It's a *total joke* in 2018."
~ Steve Q.
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<Peterson-JB-Maps-of-Meaning-Routledge-1999.pdf>
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