Thank you all for the great discussion on the human interface with AI. Below is a short video on computer predictions made back 1979. It seems similar to the conversation we're having now! https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DeNT1L3jGjbA&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=4EqeEOChHI5sV2E9uyBylU_oBaa1r9qxfS5wDx-CMKU&s=mbu-F5IWB6JeWGpRYRyICSh9RkVp8NrgPWBElJKfCH0&e= -Chance On Sat, May 19, 2018 at 10:31 PM, nysa71 < [log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Gregg writes: "A central theme of this society is on how the human > technology interface is going to change the landscape and essence of our > beings in the next 50 years." > > ~ Every generation says that about "new technology". It's not a problem > with technology. We're just getting old, and have pretty much become our > parents. [image: Emoji] > > ~ Jason Bessey > On Saturday, May 19, 2018, 11:28:50 AM EDT, [log in to unmask] < > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > I would like to add a perception. > Computer programs, such as AI, do not think in the same way as human think. > That is, they collect, collate, compare, etc, as they are programmed to do. > Surely, AI does this in ways which are far more “insightful” and useful. > But, they (AI included) do not contrast the data they have collection into > information and create knowledge in the same fashion that humans do. > And, I’m not at all sure that they produce knowledge in the sense of the > DIKW spectrum - though, admittedly, I am not a computer/AI geek. > At the near end of the spectrum - ie, data & information - computers/AI > are marvelously useful. > It is at the far end of the spectrum - ie, knowledge, wisdom, vision & > change - where humans are marvelously useful - or, at least can be so. > > Between us, human minds + AI, we could do some remarkable collection and > classification of Big Data and Big Information. > Which suggests that the human mind could, with such a substrate, make some > remarkable inroads into Big Knowledge, Big Wisdom, Big Vision, and Big > Change. > > Unfortunately, I fear John is correct. > Doing Big KWV&C is very hard work. > It is much easier to settle for D&I and go for the short term outcome. > Such as our recent, world-wide Big Recession. > > Maybe, there’s a lesson in that? > Stopping at Big D and Big I leads to Big E (Error), rather than Big K, W, > V or C! > > Best regards, > > Waldemar > > *Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD* > (Perseveret et Percipiunt) > 503.631.8044 > > *Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value.* (A Einstein) > > > > > > > On May 19, 2018, at 7:53 AM, JOHN TORDAY <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Hi Gregg, thanks for the additional materials to think about. As you know, > I think that our conscousness/mind is the result of internalization of the > environment on an ad hoc basis in order to remain in balance with it to > survive. But if we are going to introduce artificial ways of thinking, > which is a paradigm shift, how does that square with the arc of our > evolution in synchrony with the 'natural' world.......seems like the two > paradigms are at odds with one another, leading to that line in "2001, a > Space Odyssey" when the computer says "I can not do that Hal". Seems to me > AI should be a tool, not a lifestyle. As long as it is just adjunctive > that's all to the better. But we both know that people are lazy, and will > default to letting AI think for us. The brain's a muscle like any other, > use it or lose it. Maybe we need to advocate for imaginative practices as a > foil to autonomous thinking......what else are we going to be doing in our > autonomous cars back and forth to work? > > On Sat, May 19, 2018 at 7:28 AM, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx < > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Hi John, > > > > This is a good topic for discussion. From my vantage point on the ToK, > the wave of information technology is upon us and will evolve and will > change lots in the process. > > > > My call is for deliberately reflecting on what is happening and to be > concerned with what is going to happen. That is, information technology is > going to launch us into another dimension of behavioral complexity. We must > seek to fuse that transformation with Wisdom (ala Waldemar’s comment). > > > > In my frame, AI is analogous to but definitely not equivalent with human > understanding/knowing. We are organic/neuro/linguistic information > processors/communicators with experiential and self-conscious reason > giving/reflective capacities. Thus, I am in agreement with you here that > there are important differences. I like John Searle’s Chinese Room > argument > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.iep.utm.edu_chineser_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=smuo75sYdyf2FgWITmwNZNDoXJK0iLX1FtwKKghkEVg&s=7Pk3pBhoX245wSOOMh87bzkekVDt0d-PJriYnjZpV6I&e=> > as a starting point for differentiating AI from human > experience/consciousness/ intelligence/understanding. > > > > And, at the same time, I believe it is the case that our human minds > will be increasingly enmeshed with and in many ways fuse with artificial > intelligences going forward. This is already happening and nothing will > stop it (see here, The Future of the Mind > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Future-2DMind-2DScientific-2DUnderstand-2DEnhance_dp_038553082X&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=smuo75sYdyf2FgWITmwNZNDoXJK0iLX1FtwKKghkEVg&s=8dSeMiZ-SdyJCkF-3Gj1byDM2f79IBCf-PY9qdibe0E&e=>). > It is simply too convenient, too enticing, too exciting for humans not to > invest in it. > > > > For me, the question is: How can we dance wisely with the coming > information tsunami? (i.e., while maintaining human values/dignity). > > > Best, > > Gregg > > > > *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion [mailto:TOK-SOCIETY-L@ > listserv.jmu.edu <[log in to unmask]>] *On Behalf Of *JOHN > TORDAY > > *Sent:* Saturday, May 19, 2018 8:59 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: two articles on technology and humanity > > > > Dear ToK Society, the Kissinger article on AI is particularly disturbing > because we don't understand how the mind works, yet we are willing to > delegate it to machine decision making. Most telling to me was when Watson, > the IBM AI computer competed against the two top Jeopardy players a while > back. The machine won handily, but flubbed a question because it didn't > 'parse' the difference between the U.S. and Canada. Watson missed one clue > by a country mile -- better make that an entire country. During a Final *Jeopardy! > *segment that included the "U.S. Cities" category, the clue was: "Its > largest airport was named for a World War II hero; its second-largest, for > a World War II battle."Watson responded "What is Toronto???," while > contestants Jennings and Rutter correctly answered Chicago -- for the > city's O'Hare and Midway airports". The reason for the error was because > the question was nuanced in a way that required thought, not merely > regurgitating facts. I submit that AI may be able to make up jokes based on > an algorithm, but will not be able to understand a joke because that > requires 'qualia', what David Chalmers refers to as 'knowing what we know'. > Subscribing to AI is what mathematicians refer to as 'regression to the > mean', or the gradual erosion of the quality of life. I'm thinking of the > U.S. instituting the Marshall Plan at the end of WWII. To AI, rewarding the > vanquished enemy would have been 'counterintuitive', yet we had learned > from our recriminations against Germany after WWI that they had > precipitated WWII, for example. > > > > I agree with Kissinger that we need to discuss the use of AI as a Society, > but maybe we could start on a smaller scale and discuss it in the ToK > Society? > > > > On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx < > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > > A central theme of this society is on how the human technology interface > is going to change the landscape and essence of our beings in the next 50 > years. Here are two articles that highlight some of these issues. The first > is by Henry Kissinger on how the information age is changing who we are and > how we think. The second is on the molecular/protein nature of memories and > how they might be transferred from one brain to another. > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.theatlantic.com_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=4EqeEOChHI5sV2E9uyBylU_oBaa1r9qxfS5wDx-CMKU&s=rpgOiY023EOgq9egFU3SAWiuipO9k4Qduhf0mIm3b3U&e= magazine/archive/2018/06/ > henry-kissinger-ai-could-mean- the-end-of-human-history/ 559124/ > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.theatlantic.com_magazine_archive_2018_06_henry-2Dkissinger-2Dai-2Dcould-2Dmean-2Dthe-2Dend-2Dof-2Dhuman-2Dhistory_559124_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=tWZ3NmpfyjLvdAnzUPsne9Si1v2-pQ5uJaK7uJh6jBE&s=soEHX9OQjepCim9z7eWz9MrWSvPXuEnu7rZ7OLKSQIU&e=> > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nytimes.com_2018_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=4EqeEOChHI5sV2E9uyBylU_oBaa1r9qxfS5wDx-CMKU&s=tyhpIlXuAiSTO0hoLnTZ0x_EgvHoqDhHgR1Onr9LAh0&e= 05/15/science/memory-transfer- snails.html > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nytimes.com_2018_05_15_science_memory-2Dtransfer-2Dsnails.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=tWZ3NmpfyjLvdAnzUPsne9Si1v2-pQ5uJaK7uJh6jBE&s=iGcYTQY2OWLkZmHh65vstK5_FpbYgEPq_n1uXRzitXc&e=> > > > > Happy reading J. > > G > > > > ______________________________ _____________ > > Gregg Henriques, Ph.D. > Professor > Department of Graduate Psychology > 216 Johnston Hall > MSC 7401 > James Madison University > Harrisonburg, VA 22807 > (540) 568-7857 (phone) > (540) 568-4747 (fax) > > > *Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity.* > > Check out my Theory of Knowledge blog at Psychology Today at: > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=4EqeEOChHI5sV2E9uyBylU_oBaa1r9qxfS5wDx-CMKU&s=sk8FcbcLaiW-ga6wQ5WPyfxO9RwLRZi_QRsrIjjl4V8&e=. com/blog/theory-knowledge > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_blog_theory-2Dknowledge&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=tWZ3NmpfyjLvdAnzUPsne9Si1v2-pQ5uJaK7uJh6jBE&s=ADDmQm64kUxHbXljy3-rHf_ieiKWjLx4oPI6LU8lLK4&e=> > > > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:TOK-SOCIETY-L-SIGNOFF- > [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> or click the > following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi- > bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A= 1 > <http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1> > > > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:TOK-SOCIETY-L-SIGNOFF- > [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> or click the > following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi- > bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A= 1 > <http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1> > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:TOK-SOCIETY-L-SIGNOFF- > [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> or click the > following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi- > bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A= 1 > <http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1> > > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A= > 1 > > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A= > 1 > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A= > 1 > ############################ To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1