Jamie: We'll have to wait for Gregg to return to discuss his "Justification System" (and whether it is, in fact, "global," as has been raised by my questions about China) but I will agree with you that his choice of the term "justification" is an echo of the use of that term to mean *salvation* in the Protestant Reformation . . . !! Have you ever had the chance to read the decrees of the 6th session of the Council of Trent on this topic . . . ?? ON JUSTIFICATION FIRST DECREE Celebrated on the thirteenth day of the month of January, 1547. CHAPTER I. On the Inability of Nature and of the Law to justify man. The holy Synod declares first, that, for the correct and sound understanding of the doctrine of Justification, it is necessary that each one recognise and confess, that, whereas all men had lost their innocence in the prevarication of Adam-having become unclean, and, as the apostle says, by nature children of wrath, as (this Synod) has set forth in the decree on original sin,-they were so far the servants of sin, and under the power of the devil and of death, that not the Gentiles only by the force of nature, but not even the Jews by the very letter itself of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated, or to arise, therefrom; although free will, attenuated as it was in its powers, and bent down, was by no means extinguished in them . . . https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.thecounciloftrent.com_ch6.htm&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=JG_r0HEUubEE09b-3CPvQUeTEQV0JQiXCUXHr10kGaI&s=aH_efMzZk6IBIzBQc8O_Wn-k0CwHYBlpaiKQxmcSHxQ&e= Which brings us to the topic of religion. You have said a couple of things about this. Recently you have said, "I've been around many religious people and one common feature of the religious mind is a disinterest in what's true according to reason and evidence." And, in your "About Me" on your blog site, "At the age of eight, I became disturbed about the conflict between science and religion. I was disturbed from learning that the adults didn’t know what was true. I lost trust in what most people believe and began my own, independent search for comprehension." What sorts of "religious people" have you been around and what have you been saying to them? You might also be interested in how "science" (or "Just the facts, Ma'am!") was actually designed by people who wanted to eliminate everyday Christianity as an "anchor" and to replace it with a "justified world." Sometimes they were called the "Illuminati" and sometimes the "Rosicrucians." Unable to live in a "corrupt" world, they called themselves the "Perfectibilists." Theology calls them *gnostics* . . . !! https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Perfectibilists-2DCentury-2DBavarian-2DOrder-2DIlluminati_dp_0977795381&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=JG_r0HEUubEE09b-3CPvQUeTEQV0JQiXCUXHr10kGaI&s=9yu981DZj20X-lFAGcMxk8WG1lA1uUfL4d1VphcdNCs&e= Mark P.S. I have had the chance to discuss Aristotle's *four* causes with Gregg a little but we will have to wait for his return to focus on this topic. As a quick reminder, in the context of this discussion, perhaps this will help: Efficient Cause: The primary concern of 17th-19th-century "science," particularly when it is trying to accomplish engineering (i.e. making a better world.) This was replaced with "probability" in the early-20th century (under a new "paradigm," as discussed on this list), leaving science utterly without any answer to the question "why?" (as also previously discussed on this list.) Material Cause: This has become the study of "chaos" (and "self-organization" or "emergence") and graduated from astro-physics to nuclear bombs to what is now called "complexity science" (ala the Santa Fe Institute &al.) As best I can tell, this is *not* the same as "dimensions of complexity" in Gregg's system but he can clarify when he returns. Final Cause: This is the topic of "end-times" (as in "culmination of history" or "judgment day") and the subject of the Bible's last chapter, "The Book of Revelation." Modern biology has rejected any *teleology* for "evolution" and the social sciences never adopted such a scheme (indeed, now it seems to have even rejected the notion that Homo Sapiens is a "superior" species, and asks if, indeed, the whole idea of species isn't "anthropocentric.") So, if the Christian version isn't what you want (or, its even more dramatic Islamic embellishment, in which Jesus comes back to convert all the Jews to Islam), then you're pretty much on your own to make-believe whatever you'd like. Many have done exactly that. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Islamic-5Feschatology&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=JG_r0HEUubEE09b-3CPvQUeTEQV0JQiXCUXHr10kGaI&s=-imEzhv_BM6kd93s9Fn4D-tOGlXOfEyagmxaDDAE3XQ&e= Formal Cause: This was the focus of Marshall McLuhan and, now, the Center for the Study of Digital Life (which I run.) Kevin Kelly made McLuhan the "Patron Saint" of Wired but never understood what he was saying (alas, Kevin is self-taught and "born-again.") The "technium" is his version of *formal* cause (taken from McLuhan) but he turned it into the "Borg," which is always the risk in these sorts of things. Yes, "resistance is futile" (which returns us to "final cause," as typically happens for people of the "rose cross.") Quoting Mathew Jamie Dunbaugh <[log in to unmask]>: > One might wonder how the Moral Apex differs from Gregg's Global > Justification System. If Gregg already emphasizes these components then I'd > like to know because then what I call the Moral Apex is just his Global > Justification System. > > The Moral Apex is composed of: > 1) Unified Knowledge > 2) Unified Ethics > 3) Unified Purpose > 4) All shared by an integrated population > > I argue that this is the only logical culmination of the trend towards > integration and cooperation at increasingly large scales. > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: > write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] > or click the following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 ############################ To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1