frank:

Looking forward to others thoughts and suggestions, especially about "meta-justification" (for me: freedom)

As someone who attended Jesuit high-school, undergraduate and graduate school (and now works at another Jesuit college), I suspect that you know a few things about "freedom" . . . <g>

As you know, freedom has many descriptions.  Typically they fall into the "freedom from" (or "negative freedom") and "freedom to" (or "positive freedom.")  Which one (or both) are you talking about . . . ??

Mark

P.S. In all your trips to Firenze, I suspect that you've toured the "Galileo Museum."  It was originally the "History of Science Museum" and, as it turns out, my father helped to design it.  It's one of my favorite places and I've even got a poster from the 1977 "Disegni de Fabriche Brunelleschaine" exhibit at the Uffizi in my loft.

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Disegni-2Dfabbriche-2Dbrunelleschiane-2DGabinetto-2DCataloghi_dp_B00V28GKNK&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=bpDZjLV0oFkZA2Y_6IhV6M9l8kFK2YPdD8igTLMRAvU&s=TvQjMW_sjoLzY8dKXjNxY1yufb9aDCbrvzI_wjz63yY&e=

P.P.S.  As you also know, some consider Dante to have been an "occultist" who was related to the Cathars and their notions of "perfection."  His references to the "White Rose" are sometimes cited in that regard -- also appearing in your book's dedication.  Someday I'd be curious about your views on all this, however, probably best kept off-list.

P.P.P.S.  I'm sure you also know that your "Dante and Derrida: Face to Face" is available for download at various sites.  Very interesting, indeed.

Quoting Frank Ambrosio <[log in to unmask]>:

Gregg,

thanks for the last installment of "what makes us different." It pulls the
pieces together in a clear understandable way, and points the way forward
effectively by focusing us on the fifth nodal point/dimension and the
question, "what has happened to the "person" in the last 50-30k years, and
what is the situation in which we find ourselves - together with the planet
as a whole, especially with regard to suffering?" In my view, your closing
paragraphs situate us right where we need/want to be:

"The hope here is that with the right kind of meta-awareness, perhaps we
can build a meta-justification system, one that is conducive to the coming
wave of change. A justification of justifications to use Waldemar’s frame.



That, Frank, is I think what you are getting at with the centrality of
personal identity and dignity. What I am envisioning is a combination of a
system that both integrates knowledge and fosters individual development,
all in a way that “dances” with how the world will change (and change us)
as it continues to accelerate. "


Looking forward to others thoughts and suggestions, especially about
"meta-justification" (for me: freedom)


Best,

Frank



Francis J. Ambrosio, PhD
Associate Professor of Philosophy
Senior Fellow, Center for New Designs in Learning and Scholarship
Georgetown University
202-687-7441


On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 8:09 PM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Ok, to move the conversation along, I developed a quick draft that gets at
why the JH is a new, central piece of the puzzle, as it frames the shift in
human consciousness and the emergence of large scale justification systems.



With this puzzle piece in place, then we are ready to focus on the “fifth
joint point” and the future of humanity.



G

*From:* tree of knowledge system discussion <
[log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *Frank Ambrosio
*Sent:* Sunday, August 19, 2018 10:13 AM
*To:* [log in to unmask]
*Subject:* Re: re easy pieces



Gregg,



Just to be clear: I am all aboard for staying on topic here, the topic of
which pieces are minimally necessary for an integrated view of what makes
us different, both from other animals and AI. I am compressing the distinct
question of the logic of that integration, for now, into the question of
identifying the pieces.



Cheers,



Frank





Francis J. Ambrosio, PhD

Associate Professor of Philosophy

Senior Fellow, Center for New Designs in Learning and Scholarship

Georgetown University

202-687-7441





On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 3:52 PM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Mark and Frank,



I think the concept of what constitutes a mental disorder is a fascinating
and important question (although I hope we stay on the topic of human
difference—perhaps this can be an asterisk for future exporation?). It
was the focus of one of my first theory papers
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.gregghenriques.com_uploads_2_4_3_6_24368778_finalhd1.pdf&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=k4htm14sO0GrRKScsHwwHqJTeVTAkHCqFXa9yVlbR48&s=gKqegUk2vnzt0-Gh7YGEY85qgtvHKytPDzXf_W_IvHs&e=>,
published prior to my unified theory work in 2002. The justification of
mental disorder and disease is crucial to our identity. Szasz said some
very important things. He also “over shot” in that, yes, people actually do
go crazy. Their perceptual-affect systems breakdown and they hallucinate
and their justification systems go haywire and they form delusions. A
profound thought disorder is as evident of a broken mind as a heart attack.
If someone grabbed their chest, screamed in pain and died, we would say
something was wrong with them, even if we found no lesions in their heart.



All that said, the majority of what we call mental illnesses, the neurotic
conditions, are by and large problems in living and coping that lead to
clinically significant levels of distress. They are mental-behavioral
problems, not diseases in the traditional medicine sense. Some blogs on
this issue:

What is a Mental Disorder?
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__my.psychologytoday.com_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201201_what-2Dis-2Dmental-2Ddisorder&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=k4htm14sO0GrRKScsHwwHqJTeVTAkHCqFXa9yVlbR48&s=lowwMA9FHJ_VRGReIVo1WulxFkSSDugk5aURlPhwUg0&e=>
Five Broad Models of Mental Illness
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__my.psychologytoday.com_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201206_five-2Dbroad-2Dmodels-2Dmental-2Dillness-2D1&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=k4htm14sO0GrRKScsHwwHqJTeVTAkHCqFXa9yVlbR48&s=Y7-TiYgGDBPAaJUiJH25gRplgdKF5EVf8Wxo3ZYVlZI&e=>
Mental Disorders Vs Diseases
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__my.psychologytoday.com_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201305_mental-2Ddisorders-2Dvs-2Ddiseases&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=k4htm14sO0GrRKScsHwwHqJTeVTAkHCqFXa9yVlbR48&s=X8iIHyVuwaikdtfl8ALHLE7OLl03-x3MEafB9NfiUQQ&e=>

This one is on Szasz:

Is Psychiatry the Science of Lies?
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__my.psychologytoday.com_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201212_is-2Dpsychiatry-2Dthe-2Dscience-2Dlies&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=k4htm14sO0GrRKScsHwwHqJTeVTAkHCqFXa9yVlbR48&s=3NBiyjG_A-eppOGVPQiCyfE0nreUhtpsim6LAwCyYbM&e=>

Best,
Gregg





-----Original Message-----
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]u>
On Behalf Of Mark Stahlman
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2018 8:30 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: easy pieces



Frank:



Very interesting -- thanks . . . !!



As you know, Ernest Becker was "mentored" by Thomas Szasz, an important
figure in the "anti-psychiatry" movement of the 1960s.



Just as we are now in another "counter-culture," Szasz was in the middle
of his (along with some of the rest of us.)  The last time this happened,
RADIO psychology -- particularly the medical version -- came

under attack by the *new* techno-paradigm TELEVISION types.

Psychiatry lost.




https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Thomas-5FSzasz&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=XAkYRpRyVB6UU9pFYHb8b9G4xQy0T81UTArZU-8mBDE&s=y5HRC2ZOx6lt3U-JNJCXfztJ-zUX7azmsaSvzsK4thE&e
=



His 1961 "The Myth of Mental Illness" and 1970 "The Manufacture of

Madness" accompanied Michel Foucault's 1961 "History of Madness" &c.

One of the components which fed all this was the use of LSD -- beginning
and becoming widespread in psychotherapy in the 1950s and then spread by
the anti-psychiatrists in the 1960s, including after it became illegal --
which was viewed by some as "mimicking" psychosis, while others saw it as
opening the "Doors of Perception."  How's that for "counter" views
(reminding us of the recent "Entropic Brain" post by Gregg) . . . !!



Wikipedia notes --



"Szasz argued throughout his career that mental illness is a metaphor for
human problems in living, and that mental illnesses are not "illnesses" in
the sense that physical illnesses are; and that except for a few
identifiable brain diseases, there are "neither biological or chemical
tests nor biopsy or necropsy findings for verifying DSM diagnoses."



"Szasz maintained throughout his career that he was not anti-psychiatry
but was rather anti-coercive psychiatry. He was a staunch opponent of civil
commitment and involuntary psychiatric treatment but believed in, and
practiced, psychiatry and psychotherapy between consenting adults."



Yes, the closing of mental institutions was one of the results.  As are at
least some aspects of the increase in "mass killings" &c.



In the summer of 1967 (aka "The Summer of Love," when I was in
Haight-Ashbury looking for some LSD), the Tavistock Institute held a
conference at what was probably the peak of this movement -- called the
"Dialectics of Liberation Congress" (and published under the title "To Free
a Generation") -- organized by David Cooper, their resident
"anti-psychiatrist" (and a colleague of R.D. Laing, widely nominated to
take over for Tim Leary, also a psychologist, as the LSD "guru.")




https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Dialectics-5Fof-5FLiberation-5FCongress&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=XAkYRpRyVB6UU9pFYHb8b9G4xQy0T81UTArZU-8mBDE&s=4PDB5jFs232nZnFGRrkUQ4nEyaGOmGie8A_C7rRTwA0&e
=




https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Free-2DGeneration-2DDavid-2DCooper_dp_B000V2FMZA&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=XAkYRpRyVB6UU9pFYHb8b9G4xQy0T81UTArZU-8mBDE&s=Iz7r3gjr1MToZMRqRZJIMlml-eFd3p1pdOuxh3zghrc&e
=



"Emergent cosmic reality" and "cosmic information exchange dynamism"

would likely have been phrases that would have been right at home there .
. . <g>



Mark



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