Gregg,

thanks for the last installment of "what makes us different." It pulls the
pieces together in a clear understandable way, and points the way forward
effectively by focusing us on the fifth nodal point/dimension and the
question, "what has happened to the "person" in the last 50-30k years, and
what is the situation in which we find ourselves - together with the planet
as a whole, especially with regard to suffering?" In my view, your closing
paragraphs situate us right where we need/want to be:

"The hope here is that with the right kind of meta-awareness, perhaps we
can build a meta-justification system, one that is conducive to the coming
wave of change. A justification of justifications to use Waldemar’s frame.



That, Frank, is I think what you are getting at with the centrality of
personal identity and dignity. What I am envisioning is a combination of a
system that both integrates knowledge and fosters individual development,
all in a way that “dances” with how the world will change (and change us)
as it continues to accelerate. "


Looking forward to others thoughts and suggestions, especially about
"meta-justification" (for me: freedom)


Best,

Frank



Francis J. Ambrosio, PhD
Associate Professor of Philosophy
Senior Fellow, Center for New Designs in Learning and Scholarship
Georgetown University
202-687-7441


On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 8:09 PM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Ok, to move the conversation along, I developed a quick draft that gets at
> why the JH is a new, central piece of the puzzle, as it frames the shift in
> human consciousness and the emergence of large scale justification systems.
>
>
>
> With this puzzle piece in place, then we are ready to focus on the “fifth
> joint point” and the future of humanity.
>
>
>
> G
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion <
> [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *Frank Ambrosio
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 19, 2018 10:13 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: re easy pieces
>
>
>
> Gregg,
>
>
>
> Just to be clear: I am all aboard for staying on topic here, the topic of
> which pieces are minimally necessary for an integrated view of what makes
> us different, both from other animals and AI. I am compressing the distinct
> question of the logic of that integration, for now, into the question of
> identifying the pieces.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Frank
>
>
>
>
>
> Francis J. Ambrosio, PhD
>
> Associate Professor of Philosophy
>
> Senior Fellow, Center for New Designs in Learning and Scholarship
>
> Georgetown University
>
> 202-687-7441
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 3:52 PM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Mark and Frank,
>
>
>
> I think the concept of what constitutes a mental disorder is a fascinating
> and important question (although I hope we stay on the topic of human
> difference—perhaps this can be an asterisk for future exporation?). It
> was the focus of one of my first theory papers
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.gregghenriques.com_uploads_2_4_3_6_24368778_finalhd1.pdf&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=k4htm14sO0GrRKScsHwwHqJTeVTAkHCqFXa9yVlbR48&s=gKqegUk2vnzt0-Gh7YGEY85qgtvHKytPDzXf_W_IvHs&e=>,
> published prior to my unified theory work in 2002. The justification of
> mental disorder and disease is crucial to our identity. Szasz said some
> very important things. He also “over shot” in that, yes, people actually do
> go crazy. Their perceptual-affect systems breakdown and they hallucinate
> and their justification systems go haywire and they form delusions. A
> profound thought disorder is as evident of a broken mind as a heart attack.
> If someone grabbed their chest, screamed in pain and died, we would say
> something was wrong with them, even if we found no lesions in their heart.
>
>
>
> All that said, the majority of what we call mental illnesses, the neurotic
> conditions, are by and large problems in living and coping that lead to
> clinically significant levels of distress. They are mental-behavioral
> problems, not diseases in the traditional medicine sense. Some blogs on
> this issue:
>
> What is a Mental Disorder?
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__my.psychologytoday.com_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201201_what-2Dis-2Dmental-2Ddisorder&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=k4htm14sO0GrRKScsHwwHqJTeVTAkHCqFXa9yVlbR48&s=lowwMA9FHJ_VRGReIVo1WulxFkSSDugk5aURlPhwUg0&e=>
> Five Broad Models of Mental Illness
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__my.psychologytoday.com_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201206_five-2Dbroad-2Dmodels-2Dmental-2Dillness-2D1&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=k4htm14sO0GrRKScsHwwHqJTeVTAkHCqFXa9yVlbR48&s=Y7-TiYgGDBPAaJUiJH25gRplgdKF5EVf8Wxo3ZYVlZI&e=>
> Mental Disorders Vs Diseases
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__my.psychologytoday.com_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201305_mental-2Ddisorders-2Dvs-2Ddiseases&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=k4htm14sO0GrRKScsHwwHqJTeVTAkHCqFXa9yVlbR48&s=X8iIHyVuwaikdtfl8ALHLE7OLl03-x3MEafB9NfiUQQ&e=>
>
> This one is on Szasz:
>
> Is Psychiatry the Science of Lies?
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__my.psychologytoday.com_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201212_is-2Dpsychiatry-2Dthe-2Dscience-2Dlies&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=k4htm14sO0GrRKScsHwwHqJTeVTAkHCqFXa9yVlbR48&s=3NBiyjG_A-eppOGVPQiCyfE0nreUhtpsim6LAwCyYbM&e=>
>
>
>
> Best,
> Gregg
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]>
> On Behalf Of Mark Stahlman
> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2018 8:30 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: easy pieces
>
>
>
> Frank:
>
>
>
> Very interesting -- thanks . . . !!
>
>
>
> As you know, Ernest Becker was "mentored" by Thomas Szasz, an important
> figure in the "anti-psychiatry" movement of the 1960s.
>
>
>
> Just as we are now in another "counter-culture," Szasz was in the middle
> of his (along with some of the rest of us.)  The last time this happened,
> RADIO psychology -- particularly the medical version -- came
>
> under attack by the *new* techno-paradigm TELEVISION types.
>
> Psychiatry lost.
>
>
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Thomas-5FSzasz&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=XAkYRpRyVB6UU9pFYHb8b9G4xQy0T81UTArZU-8mBDE&s=y5HRC2ZOx6lt3U-JNJCXfztJ-zUX7azmsaSvzsK4thE&e
> =
>
>
>
> His 1961 "The Myth of Mental Illness" and 1970 "The Manufacture of
>
> Madness" accompanied Michel Foucault's 1961 "History of Madness" &c.
>
> One of the components which fed all this was the use of LSD -- beginning
> and becoming widespread in psychotherapy in the 1950s and then spread by
> the anti-psychiatrists in the 1960s, including after it became illegal --
> which was viewed by some as "mimicking" psychosis, while others saw it as
> opening the "Doors of Perception."  How's that for "counter" views
> (reminding us of the recent "Entropic Brain" post by Gregg) . . . !!
>
>
>
> Wikipedia notes --
>
>
>
> "Szasz argued throughout his career that mental illness is a metaphor for
> human problems in living, and that mental illnesses are not "illnesses" in
> the sense that physical illnesses are; and that except for a few
> identifiable brain diseases, there are "neither biological or chemical
> tests nor biopsy or necropsy findings for verifying DSM diagnoses."
>
>
>
> "Szasz maintained throughout his career that he was not anti-psychiatry
> but was rather anti-coercive psychiatry. He was a staunch opponent of civil
> commitment and involuntary psychiatric treatment but believed in, and
> practiced, psychiatry and psychotherapy between consenting adults."
>
>
>
> Yes, the closing of mental institutions was one of the results.  As are at
> least some aspects of the increase in "mass killings" &c.
>
>
>
> In the summer of 1967 (aka "The Summer of Love," when I was in
> Haight-Ashbury looking for some LSD), the Tavistock Institute held a
> conference at what was probably the peak of this movement -- called the
> "Dialectics of Liberation Congress" (and published under the title "To Free
> a Generation") -- organized by David Cooper, their resident
> "anti-psychiatrist" (and a colleague of R.D. Laing, widely nominated to
> take over for Tim Leary, also a psychologist, as the LSD "guru.")
>
>
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Dialectics-5Fof-5FLiberation-5FCongress&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=XAkYRpRyVB6UU9pFYHb8b9G4xQy0T81UTArZU-8mBDE&s=4PDB5jFs232nZnFGRrkUQ4nEyaGOmGie8A_C7rRTwA0&e
> =
>
>
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Free-2DGeneration-2DDavid-2DCooper_dp_B000V2FMZA&d=DwIDaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=XAkYRpRyVB6UU9pFYHb8b9G4xQy0T81UTArZU-8mBDE&s=Iz7r3gjr1MToZMRqRZJIMlml-eFd3p1pdOuxh3zghrc&e
> =
>
>
>
> "Emergent cosmic reality" and "cosmic information exchange dynamism"
>
> would likely have been phrases that would have been right at home there .
> . . <g>
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the
> following link:
> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
>
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the
> following link:
> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the
> following link:
> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
>

############################

To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list:
write to: mailto:[log in to unmask]
or click the following link:
http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1