Tim: The approach I take is (and I had thought) the *same* one taken by Gregg -- which is to say the one put forward by Merlin Donald. He is an evolutionary neuro-psychologist who is working with my Center. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Merlin-5FDonald&d=DwIBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jtGEWYngeGkLHbpF05r9EOzFOXrDYqAZf6kwj_zoHrc&s=rb0Iuiu_vOCGc7Bu3aATEPwe70hZGrXfXmx27c-a6b4&e= His 1992 "Origins of the Modern Mind" -- which sharply distinguishes "mimetic" from "mythic" cultures -- is a further elaboration of the 1976 Julian Jaynes "Origins of Consciousness." I was also Jaynes' "last student." https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Origins-2DModern-2DMind-2DEvolution-2DCognition_dp_0674644840&d=DwIBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jtGEWYngeGkLHbpF05r9EOzFOXrDYqAZf6kwj_zoHrc&s=9ReDL2pIk9yhs1Xyp2AA5RSDruPmvgwox8sh9YqihjA&e= https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Origin-2DConsciousness-2DBreakdown-2DBicameral-2DMind_dp_0618057072&d=DwIBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jtGEWYngeGkLHbpF05r9EOzFOXrDYqAZf6kwj_zoHrc&s=Hauk9nsswBw-L3LLMnciM-smw6qtvEarRKDrKFAl5zM&e= No I wasn't at Gregg's conference and if someone else has a different view on this topic, which I've been studying for many years, I'd be happy to take a look if you can provide a reference . . . !! Mark Quoting Tim Henriques <[log in to unmask]>: > Hi Mark - I wanted to get clarification on the post you mentioned below > > Homo Sapiens did *not* have anything like human language as a direct > result of its own biological evolution. From 200,000+ years ago until > some time much more recently -- perhaps only 10,000+ years ago -- > humans most likely didn't have spoken language and written language is > only 2500 or-so years old. > Just to make sure I am reading that correctly, is the claim you are > making that we didn't have spoken language 200k years ago or more? > > > Did you happen to attend the ToK conference that Gregg held earlier > this year? There was interesting presentation on Hunter Gatherer > society as one of the main topics of a lecture, and in that > presentation the presenter (Steve Keefer I believe) made that case > that humans had reasonable working language at 600k years ago if my > memory serves correctly. I am not an expert on this topic myself > and so I can only relate the information presented. I imagine one > of the points of contention is "what constitutes language". It was > a subject I was interested in so I specifically asked about him > about this and his basic point was that the hunter gather community > could communicate quite well with each other and broader tribes. > From a justification point of view they could ask each other "why > did you do that" and then expect an answer. I asked him if that was > more of his 'pet theory' or if there was reasonable consensus on > that and he seemed to indicate the latter. > > > Does that information jive with your account of history or do you > take a different approach? > > > Tim Henriques > Director, NPTI VA/MD/DC > 703-531-0795 > NPTI's Webpage > > Did you know I wrote a book about Powerlifting? > > > Refer a friend to NPTI and receive a FREE CEU Class of your choice > (including TRX and KB) if they sign up > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Stahlman <[log in to unmask]> > To: TOK-SOCIETY-L <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Tue, Sep 25, 2018 5:48 pm > Subject: Re: Stam's critique > > Gregg: > > As we've discussed, there is no simple "identity" between language > and humans. > > Homo Sapiens did *not* have anything like human language as a direct > result of its own biological evolution. From 200,000+ years ago until > some time much more recently -- perhaps only 10,000+ years ago -- > humans most likely didn't have spoken language and written language is > only 2500 or-so years old. > > Yes -- Merlin Donald is probably the best source on all this . . . !! > > Mark ############################ To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1