Gregg: Thanks! As you know, what was really the "game-changer" -- in terms of humans that we would recognize as such -- was *literacy* and not "language." That didn't happen until c. 500BC. This is the third-phase on Donald's schema and the "origin of consciosness" in Jaynes's. It was the "Axial Age" (so-called by Jaspers), from which the "Great Religions" and the civilizations based on them arose -- generating the world in which we now live. Obviously people can speculate as far back as they like but for what purpose? If the task-at-hand is understanding the world we live in today, what does it matter when you date early "language" . . . ?? Mark Quoting "Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx" <[log in to unmask]>: > Hi Mark and Tim, > > Yes, my approach overlaps with Donald's significantly. My > "justification systems" are essentially his mythic culture period. > Full symbolic language into the development of justification > systems. Best guess is that full language is sometime between > 150,000 and 75,000. By 50,000 years we see an explosion of artefacts > suggestive of a mythology/justification system. Then technology > shifts things more, with agriculture and again with writing > (earliest ~5K) and philosophy 2500K ago and more recently science > and digital processing. > > Exactly when language and its various forms developed is much > debated and hard to know. Steve dropped off the list a few months > back, so I am not sure what he says about that exactly. The idea > that language could have been represent 500,000-600,000 k ago is > possible, but not much in the way of very convincing data. Some > stuff on the evolution of the throat and hyoid bone and other > structures. The folks who look at the evolution of speech (as > opposed to language) tend to go deeper in the evolutionary time than > the evolution of language folks. (see, > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__web.archive.org_web_20070809073918_http-3A__www3.isrl.uiuc.edu_-7Ejunwang4_langev_localcopy_pdf_fitch00speech.pdf&d=DwIBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=u_p9FYYQva2cLiNs3hrX61Y3gjSjjMH56RqUbUtExKY&s=V239e__0Kj_JPCVjYsJOW_6VNRrYskgBKhEQUtT404k&e=). > > Here is a link to Steve's talk, which was on how hunter gatherers > solve relational issues by fostering autonomy and community and > regulating dominance. > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.gregghenriques.com_evolution-2Dwell-2Dbeing-2Dand-2Dhuman-2Dvalues.html&d=DwIBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=u_p9FYYQva2cLiNs3hrX61Y3gjSjjMH56RqUbUtExKY&s=moM74q2xpF-Ui0QowTviWTw6I82HGdXsoZTBqr_FiuI&e= > > Best, > Gregg > > -----Original Message----- > From: tree of knowledge system discussion > <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Mark Stahlman > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 7:35 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Humans and Language > > Tim: > > The approach I take is (and I had thought) the *same* one taken by > Gregg -- which is to say the one put forward by Merlin Donald. He is > an evolutionary neuro-psychologist who is working with my Center. > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Merlin-5FDonald&d=DwIBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jtGEWYngeGkLHbpF05r9EOzFOXrDYqAZf6kwj_zoHrc&s=rb0Iuiu_vOCGc7Bu3aATEPwe70hZGrXfXmx27c-a6b4&e= > > His 1992 "Origins of the Modern Mind" -- which sharply distinguishes > "mimetic" from "mythic" cultures -- is a further elaboration of the > 1976 Julian Jaynes "Origins of Consciousness." I was also Jaynes' > "last student." > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Origins-2DModern-2DMind-2DEvolution-2DCognition_dp_0674644840&d=DwIBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jtGEWYngeGkLHbpF05r9EOzFOXrDYqAZf6kwj_zoHrc&s=9ReDL2pIk9yhs1Xyp2AA5RSDruPmvgwox8sh9YqihjA&e= > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Origin-2DConsciousness-2DBreakdown-2DBicameral-2DMind_dp_0618057072&d=DwIBaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jtGEWYngeGkLHbpF05r9EOzFOXrDYqAZf6kwj_zoHrc&s=Hauk9nsswBw-L3LLMnciM-smw6qtvEarRKDrKFAl5zM&e= > > No I wasn't at Gregg's conference and if someone else has a > different view on this topic, which I've been studying for many > years, I'd be happy to take a look if you can provide a reference . > . . !! > > Mark > > Quoting Tim Henriques <[log in to unmask]>: > >> Hi Mark - I wanted to get clarification on the post you mentioned >> below >> >> Homo Sapiens did *not* have anything like human language as a direct >> result of its own biological evolution. From 200,000+ years ago until >> some time much more recently -- perhaps only 10,000+ years ago -- >> humans most likely didn't have spoken language and written language is >> only 2500 or-so years old. >> Just to make sure I am reading that correctly, is the claim you are >> making that we didn't have spoken language 200k years ago or more? >> >> >> Did you happen to attend the ToK conference that Gregg held earlier >> this year? There was interesting presentation on Hunter Gatherer >> society as one of the main topics of a lecture, and in that >> presentation the presenter (Steve Keefer I believe) made that case >> that humans had reasonable working language at 600k years ago if my >> memory serves correctly. I am not an expert on this topic myself and >> so I can only relate the information presented. I imagine one of the >> points of contention is "what constitutes language". It was a subject >> I was interested in so I specifically asked about him about this and >> his basic point was that the hunter gather community >> could communicate quite well with each other and broader tribes. >> From a justification point of view they could ask each other "why did >> you do that" and then expect an answer. I asked him if that was more >> of his 'pet theory' or if there was reasonable consensus on that and >> he seemed to indicate the latter. >> >> >> Does that information jive with your account of history or do you take >> a different approach? >> >> >> Tim Henriques >> Director, NPTI VA/MD/DC >> 703-531-0795 >> NPTI's Webpage >> >> Did you know I wrote a book about Powerlifting? >> >> >> Refer a friend to NPTI and receive a FREE CEU Class of your choice >> (including TRX and KB) if they sign up >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mark Stahlman <[log in to unmask]> >> To: TOK-SOCIETY-L <[log in to unmask]> >> Sent: Tue, Sep 25, 2018 5:48 pm >> Subject: Re: Stam's critique >> >> Gregg: >> >> As we've discussed, there is no simple "identity" between language and >> humans. >> >> Homo Sapiens did *not* have anything like human language as a direct >> result of its own biological evolution. From 200,000+ years ago until >> some time much more recently -- perhaps only 10,000+ years ago -- >> humans most likely didn't have spoken language and written language is >> only 2500 or-so years old. >> >> Yes -- Merlin Donald is probably the best source on all this . . . !! >> >> Mark > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: > write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] > or click the following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: > write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] > or click the following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 ############################ To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1