On Nov 17, 2018, at 6:19 AM, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hi All,

Thanks for the questions Waldemar! Defining science, mind, consciousness (and behavior and psychology) is very much where the action is at as far as I am concerned. I have a slightly different version of reality than Mark's Aristotelian techno-constructivist view. But there is clearly a lot of validity here.

Let me say that I ended up asking, "What is psychology?" because I wanted a coherent way to help my clients "design" better lives. That is, much like Mark's point that science relates to human needs for engineering, I saw psychotherapy as essentially a form of human engineering, and I needed a scientific description of my subject matter (i.e., distressed human persons experiencing maladaptive psychosocial patterns) so that I could operate much like a modern engineer who uses physics to design bridges or a modern medical doctor who uses the bio-physiological sciences to design medical interventions. (Psychotherapy is a formal professional relationship with the goal to foster psychosocial well-being).

But as folks on this list know, when I asked, What is (modern) psychology? I realized that there was no good frame. The field did not even know how to characterize its subject matter (i.e., Mind or behavior? Animals or persons? And since the 1940s, it has been confused about whether or not it is a science or a profession!). Modern/textbook 101 psychology is now characterized by the empirical method applied primarily to human variables analyzed via aggregate statistics and coupled to a weak, ill formed functionalist view of the mind. It is largely misguided.  

"Modern scientific/empirical psychology" is conventionally dated to Wundt's lab in 1879, because he employed the empirical method, started the process of training doctoral students and started a journal. In other words, he centrally involved in generating the modern empirical method and institutional infrastructure for the field. Of course, the story of psychological ideas goes back to the Greeks and, of course, they did not materialize out of nowhere. Ever since folks have been writing stuff down (i.e., at least since the beginning of "history"), there have been psychological-type questions about how to live and concepts like behavior, mind, consciousness and their relation with the physical world.

Re science, I think of basic, modern science as "empirical natural philosophy." Modern science obtains its firm foothold in the pantheon of human knowledge with Newton, of course, building on folks like Galileo. Although not often characterized like this nowadays, Newton offered a different space time metaphysics than Aristotle (especially regarding the concept of inertia) and developed calculus to map behavioral change and formulated his laws of motion (i.e., macro-physical behavior). And that was a game changer in human understanding. (After Newton, then there was light!) It gave people the fantasy that you could empirically map the world mathematically, without any human knower components. (Ultimately, the anti-subjective knower problem is at the root of many of modern science's core difficulties, from quantum mechanics to consciousness to post modernism).

Here is my bottom line. Modern scientific psychology needs a language game that actually makes sense. "Behavior and mental processes" clearly is fallacious. If we can all agree that the modern textbook definition of psychology is obviously wrong (i.e., conceptually confused and unworkable), then we should also agree we should be on the lookout for a new way to go, and studying various proposals accordingly.

Of course, this question and problem is centrally connected to the ToK System. The ToK invites folks to define and conceptualize the universe and our terms for carving it up in a new and different way. It offers us a new metaphysics, one that is actually designed from a metatheoretical perspective to organize our modern empirical sciences. A substance-monist-but-property-quadist view, it invites us to see the world in terms of Physical-Material Objects, Biological-Living Organisms, Psychological-Mental Animals, and Social-Cultural People. And it says the cause for the differentiations across these dimensions of behavioral complexity is informational/computational/communication realized via epi/genetics organizing cells (i.e., living behaviors), neuronal networks organizing brains/animals (giving rise to mental behaviors), and linguistic justification systems organizing persons (i.e., cultural behaviors), respectively.

At one level, it is really not that complicated. Who could disagree with a Physical-Biological-Psychological-Social view of the world? Heck, when she was four, my daughter Sydney got it with "Rocks, Plants, Animals, People." But, it also is super complicated, because it is a new worldview with many new twists on old ideas (and a couple of brand new ideas to boot!). The new-old and simple-complex dynamic in the system makes many people's eyes glaze over as they stare at it.

Let me conclude by saying I find it useful to be able to engineer my life toward the ultimate good (i.e., Aristotle's eudaimonia), which is found on my signature line. It is my ultimate justification, and it is how I position myself when I do therapy.

Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity.    

Best,
Gregg   

___________________________________________
Gregg Henriques, Ph.D.
Professor
Department of Graduate Psychology
216 Johnston Hall
MSC 7401
James Madison University
Harrisonburg, VA 22807
(540) 568-7857 (phone)
(540) 568-4747 (fax)

Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity.
Check out my Theory of Knowledge blog at Psychology Today at:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/theory-knowledge

Check out my webpage at:
www.gregghenriques.com




-----Original Message-----
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Mark Stahlman
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2018 6:26 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: blog on talking as a behavior or mental process

Waldemar:

Excellent points . . . !!

"Science" was specifically invented -- say, for instance, at the Royal Society of London (c. 1680) -- for two related purposes . . .

1) To exclude "metaphysics" (which at that time meant speculation re:  
"final causes," aka the end-of-the-world, and all things Roman
Catholic) and

2) To provide the basis for engineering society (thus its role in the Industrial Revolutions and the expansion of the British Empire, the Opium Wars &c)

So, accordingly, what *engineering* goal is being envisioned when "mind maps" are being drawn . . . ??

As I've mentioned a few times (but has not been taken up on this list), the modern "science" of psychology has played a significant role in trying to *engineer* people's "attitudes and behaviors."

In the fullest-extent, this is known as "psychological warfare" (as, for instance, the "Cold War"), the scientific basis of which has names like "Social Psychology" (as invented by Kurt Lewin &al).

In the more day-to-day sense, this is known as "advertising" and "propaganda" and "memeology," all of which employ mass-media to inculcate the population with particular goals in mind.  Like voting (when the outcome is already known.)  Or, buying things you truly don't need &c.

Gregg, of course, is correct.  There *is* a "problem" with psychology
-- as the "science" behind *engineering* behaviors -- since, evidently, it simply doesn't "work" anymore.  People aren't doing what they are supposed to do.  They aren't "adjusting" the way they are supposed to.  People are upset.  Something is broken.

Gregg is attempting to construct a psychological "grand synthesis"  
with the hopes of putting together a new "behavior" *engineering*  
paradigm -- constructed out of the detritus of the earlier attempts.   
To get people back on track.  Courageously, to be sure.

But, alternatively, it's just possible that this sort of "psychology"  
*cannot* work without the mass-media which carries out its plans.  For Gregg, psychology began in the 19th-century -- exactly when mass-media began (via telegraph and newspapers.)  Of course, there was a psychology going back to the 4th-century BC but that doesn't count -- since it can't be used for the same behavioral engineering purposes.

If there is to be a new "science of psychology," as Gregg intends (and has organized us to help him accomplish), then the *engineering* goals need to be made explicit.  That's the whole point of "measurable or systematic principles."  Science feeds engineering, like daylight follows the dawn.

Otherwise it's just "pisser dans le vent," n'est pas . . . <g>

Mark

Quoting Waldemar Schmidt <[log in to unmask]>:

Dear Friends:

What fascinating ideas about mental processes, mind, consciousness,
and science.  No idling grey matter on this list serve!

But some of us, such as myself, are a little bit slower and need some
definitions.  Sorry, that’s my reductionist training exerting itself.
Please understand that the following comments deal with methods and
means and not with person or persons.

For instance, how is “science” being used?  Wiktionary defines “science” as:

science

1.    A particular discipline or branch of learning, especially one  
dealing with measurable or systematic principles rather than intuition
or natural ability. [from 14th

2.    Specifically the natural sciences  
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_natural-5Fscience&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=-cbYA2VU5t-3f-fdo-wtYkjJPY7e0zCK12DtMwoeFYA&e=>.

3.     Knowledge  
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_knowledge&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq
0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1Ag
omVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=coFevuvkx9ynHz2TeR37-tHYN-aS_-nSfaJkC4I1tOc&
e=> gained through study
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_study&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=
HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVO
UZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=dCElDACihsn-ziUhviIyvvGE_0vImUsOQfWjqe2EJCQ&e=>
or practice
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_practice&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0
&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1Ago
mVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=YseRT2bPwLNOfLTmnPkT76ZKrI-2YpuVuw5rZ9GJ87g&e
=>; mastery of a particular discipline or area. [from 14th c

4.    The fact of knowing something; knowledge  
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_knowledge&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq
0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1Ag
omVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=coFevuvkx9ynHz2TeR37-tHYN-aS_-nSfaJkC4I1tOc&
e=> or understanding of a truth. [from 14th c

5.    The collective discipline of study or learning acquired  
through the scientific method
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_scientific-5Fmethod&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOd
n_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFV
MlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=xd0rFmae1PGmS5A7VnXTXxNrH2DiU1wkS-
P4hFJxKt8&e=>; the sum of knowledge gained from such methods and
discipline. [from 18th c

6.    Knowledge derived from scientific disciplines, scientific  
method, or any systematic effort.

7.    The scientific community.

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org
_wiki_science&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r
=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomV
OUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=IpmE1HgW6w1hw-06vvj96u1IYWhv91kiBYDAK8xQiSM&e=
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_science&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&
r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1Agom
VOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=IpmE1HgW6w1hw-06vvj96u1IYWhv91kiBYDAK8xQiSM&e=

How is it being used in this discussion?  This is important in terms
of the Wittgensteinian word game, n’est pas?  My conception of
“science” is that principally it is a discipline, a method, a way of
thinking, a filtration means for dealing with disparate
representations of reality which tends towards finding and exploiting
reproducible representations.  That is, centered around definition #1
above.  But, more often than not, the word “science”
is used variably to mean, as it may be useful to a particular
contention with which it is associated, any or all of the other
definitions, just in case any one or more of them may affirm the
contention being made.

OK, in case that seems nit picking – wait, there’s more – as the TV
hucksters proclaim.

How are the words “mental processes,” “mind,” and “consciousness”  
being used in this discussion?  Again, I’ll refer to Wiktionary, since
that is easily accessible by all.

mental

1.    Of or relating to the mind  
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_mind&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=H
Po1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOU
ZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=PoGUxNpZJbGZ-MVP1YIEdZOe1qcqzvCDpe0PrPtBedI&e=>
or an intellectual
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_intellect&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq
0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1Ag
omVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=bYKdSMH1aOkF_uCOZuJqWu5QwxOYXLxU8lkWjzN2lxc&
e=>
process.

2.    Insane  
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_insane&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=w-rL22JHMDrosrPvUfy_OKkWu8Y6N1__0Z-wBoG62Ek&e=>, mad <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mad&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=F339WLuifNNXnAp2YjDVsbdI0iGGba4Eijl2eXMU66M&e=>, crazy <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_crazy&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=xXXthS8K4trxkP8nN6WWry8WtNPP0GuyZkho84SP7g4&e=>.

3.    Enjoyable  
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_enjoyable&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=56lUFKRHJRxuPv9iIPfOBu4xR2YXkyB6sOETWSvOY24&e=> or fun <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_fun&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=6pTCsnTso0nlbSz1gP3UUCCtQP7oBNOx5bFMjUpYbtE&e=>, especially in a frenetic way.

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org
_wiki_mental&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=
HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVO
UZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=iqHOvOiJdR_VJUtLLytfRJ5BcbdGMg0KX5zrOe7LO3k&e=
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_mental&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r
=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomV
OUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=iqHOvOiJdR_VJUtLLytfRJ5BcbdGMg0KX5zrOe7LO3k&e=>


mind

1.    The ability for rational  
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_rational&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=ZPzsIsx3m8-7rXNOlVXH91ekDFzgF6rIkZ9sgv-SgyM&e=> thought <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_thought&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=bpvxDKVGm-NW6yvgBp08Mrx3_dOPa3aVUR8H_1eJo4s&e=>.

2.    The ability  
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_ability&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=5uOhyMO8RdHEqcw7Osa3II3v7zvCZzMe8m5Vt5BM0t0&e=> to be aware <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_aware&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=sDFROvqrNWkh6iscOIijngg-hXmHCYPPrJwIhIGCy4s&e=> of things.

3.    The ability to remember things.

4.    The ability to focus the thoughts.

5.    Somebody that embodies certain mental qualities.

6.    Judgment, opinion, or view.

7.    Desire, inclination, or intention.

8.    A healthy mental state.

9.    The non-  
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_non-2D&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=pHi0Yo0ewjQwnJKkN8yCcfoYCHXzgSatMycf921_Mcc&e=>material <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_material&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=oVH_9HPqzEhzgLtBiU5NzPLNpWlU_KbA8Wjd3y_8kUI&e=> substance <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_substance&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=HQkgE-nG29vmawdSdDDawNbSNtqeXHV4W0nvZ7qYGPQ&e=> or set of processes <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_process&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=oo9NDaIrDRA66AGcbV9pyx5Iu9AvcRQSscm1eD54jVY&e=> in which consciousness <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_consciousness&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=N5NQtfKssGCncmMohYMYoh4eLZiYLKVac8Xv_judpuE&e=>, perception <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_perception&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=8eWPtT49qOoUCY5KtueMUICo9o5kA1AAiiTcBh73xKE&e=>, affectivity <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_affectivity&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=de5v6fA2Z8!

-UlbndUhlNKsyhW8julFQ32j-7q2_l55o&e=>, judgement <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_judgement&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=nkBcPGGCHgahkQUH_L0IVFSmM4RBo84jQ8_c7xAyLYA&e=>, thinking <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_thinking&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=QdBT7r4EuwqqgdCSn4nc9ZhoM6rDwCvfkr9rgE3LaV0&e=>, and will <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_will&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=Z4IVrlCWPV6JKiLCV-9_EkrkMEIyoO10PWhBSH2ER0k&e=> are  

based.

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org
_wiki_mind&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HP
o1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZ
zkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=PoGUxNpZJbGZ-MVP1YIEdZOe1qcqzvCDpe0PrPtBedI&e=
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_mind&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=H
Po1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOU
ZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=PoGUxNpZJbGZ-MVP1YIEdZOe1qcqzvCDpe0PrPtBedI&e=>


conscious

1.    Alert  
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_alert&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=
HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVO
UZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=MYumFMIaAdY_gqkKoeY9Um_YSkfq0Yt5PxMMHwGbzdM&e=>,
awake
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_awake&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=
HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVO
UZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=57ELSfPbxtID1-hlgR09tgTZnRCkDN9AC7gMmKaew4g&e=>;
with one's mental
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_mental&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r
=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomV
OUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=iqHOvOiJdR_VJUtLLytfRJ5BcbdGMg0KX5zrOe7LO3k&e=>
faculties
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_faculty&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&
r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1Agom
VOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=12T0UQqJ0qw6RqPwvNL5m9z8p9IRn66uJW4a-Ooxw80&e=

active.

2.    Aware  
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_aware&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=sDFROvqrNWkh6iscOIijngg-hXmHCYPPrJwIhIGCy4s&e=> of one's own existence; aware <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_aware&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=sDFROvqrNWkh6iscOIijngg-hXmHCYPPrJwIhIGCy4s&e=> of one's own awareness <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_awareness&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=KMF2BYFWGJg_fOYGIO4QvKmRUIfOwaDKlyA6hUzNZM8&e=>.

3.    Aware  
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_aware&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=sDFROvqrNWkh6iscOIijngg-hXmHCYPPrJwIhIGCy4s&e=> of, sensitive <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_sensitive&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=D19qfv16zyQXtzQs1g4J1zfFAvHWxrd2KHqXYKytIcY&e=> to; observing and noticing, or being strongly interested in or concerned about.

4.    Deliberate  
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_deliberate&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=pBBA99rXxcnF9zE7xOog8mCsx10GOCGmgDU_BArcnww&e=>, intentional <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_intentional&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=1Ourwcl47YAqCHQJafvYX5gzSvM61tQaen-w2Q-9q10&e=>, done with awareness <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_awareness&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=KMF2BYFWGJg_fOYGIO4QvKmRUIfOwaDKlyA6hUzNZM8&e=> of what one is doing.

5.    Known  
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_known&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=QvoQ3zsf733nRHgAP2YGMOamikEXaV0zS2Oip6ZrCDc&e=> or felt <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_felt&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=eyd6RpjI5N5uubDYl4p-8XMEQFOCbFSwMb9-wfAcz0s&e=> personally, internally by a person.

6.    Self-conscious  
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_self-2Dconscious&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=JjHK3yuqMzxSBSxg4B7Xkg0DhmR0Lm2Ecy6fqQFLQ8w&e=>.

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org
_wiki_conscious&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0
&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1Ago
mVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=5lnKZ_QChjktNnwS6jAPx3F3-tmimSGuL-8LFUx_ygA&e
=
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.or
g_wiki_conscious&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq
0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1Ag
omVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=5lnKZ_QChjktNnwS6jAPx3F3-tmimSGuL-8LFUx_ygA&
e=>

Clearly, “mental” as used in this discussion surely means the
application of definition #1 above.  As such, I take it to be a
sophisticated way to state that “something is going on in the "mind.”  
Is there a more specific way in which this word is being used in this
discussion?

“Mind,” on the other hand, appears to allude to a variety of
psychological functions, as well as affective, cognitive, and conative
states.  This wide usage and reference leaves the word’s meaning too
vague in meaningful discussion. [Sorry, my reductionist opinion, to my
mind (pun intended).]

And, “consciousness” – how may we apprehend its use?  The definitions
above seem uniformly confined to understanding this state in a
singular way – as does “mind, by the way.  That is, implicit is the
perception of reference to the conscious state – as opposed to either
the pre-conscious or the unconscious state.

Which leads me to suggest the following:


                                       (Apologies, as needed, to
Gregg’s more instructive Human Mind Diagrams)



In this representation, the “mind” includes all three levels of
activity – the conscious, the pre-conscious, and the unconscious, as
well as the sympathetic nervous system, the endocrine system, and the
body in general.  But, more commonly, when we refer to the “mind” we
imply CNS mental activity of which we are consciously aware.  Whereas,
in terms of consciousness we are only aware of the “conscious mind”
component and partially/intermittently aware of the “pre-conscious”
component while, by definition, being unaware of the “unconscious
mind” component and processes therein.  On the other hand, “mental
processes” occur in the “mind” at all levels, while “consciousness”
refers predominantly to our awareness of mental processes at the
“conscious mind” level.  With extended effort, consciousness is able
to access some of the mental processes at the “preconscious mind”
level.  With greater effort, and some professional  help, we might
access some of the mental processes at the “unconscious mind” level.

An example is provided by Martin’s email about his mathematics
deliberations.  As he writes, it was when he awoke that he experienced
further insight to his maths problem – after consideration of Gregg
and Linda’s comments.  This suggests (to me the reductionist) that his
non-consciousness “unconscious mind”
mental processes were at work assisting his consciouness “conscious
mind” to evolve a resolution.

Sometimes it seems to me that humanities-type writing includes
dependence upon unstated assumptions and an unclearly defined use of
words.  It might be prudent to consider such as to do so may not be in
the best interests of The TOK Society’s efforts.

Just in case Wittgenstein is right!

Best regards,

Waldemar

Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD
(Perseveret et Percipiunt)
503.631.8044

Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. (A Einstein)

On Nov 16, 2018, at 6:49 AM, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Thanks, Nancy.

To me, this is a great topic for our list. I would be curious to hear
your thoughts on how you define/characterize mental processes and
consciousness.

I encourage others to chime in also.

I am in the thick of my next book, The Problem of Psychology and Its
Solution. It argues directly that modern empirical/textbook
psychology is anchored to methodological behaviorism, where behavior
is what we measure and mind is the cause or force or whatever that is
inferred. Via the UTUA language game, I am delineating a new way to
define these concepts. I will say here that the three concepts are
very different in the UTUA system.
Mental processes are not synonymous with consciousness in my language
game. Indeed, I see it as crucial that the two are separated.

Warm regards,
Gregg





From: tree of knowledge system discussion
<[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Nancy Link
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 3:34 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: blog on talking as a behavior or mental process

Hi Gregg,

I agree completely with what you have said in this blog.

I think that the study of mental processes (consciousness) continues
to be seriously disadvantaged because the way that psychology was
initially set up.

To the extent that it is seriously studied, it is studied by the
psychotherapists who work with the material of consciousness.

Nancy

From: tree of knowledge system discussion
<[log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Gregg Henriques
<[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Reply-To: tree of knowledge system discussion
<[log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Date: Thursday, November 15, 2018 at 10:43 AM
To: "[log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>"
<[log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: blog on talking as a behavior or mental process

Hi List,
 Hope this finds everyone well. I had an exchange yesterday with
Steve Quackenbush on the deep problems with modern empirical
psychology, and it prompted the following short
blog:https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychol
ogytoday.com_us_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201811_is-2Dtalking-2Dbehavio
r-2Dor-2Dmental-2Dprocess&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOd
n_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhF
VMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=AOJ_13frMB6kAu2LogJpqs6XFC7orhFc
sqFITW-45Ew&e=
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologyt
oday.com_us_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201811_is-2Dtalking-2Dbehavior-2D
or-2Dmental-2Dprocess&d=DwMFAg&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5n
BEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=OniJrklPJVN62
FIay4fbiT4SnefsFPZ6AWAHxi0gG_8&s=Eg23DNnrxK_LcrlLt3OuNNNgFwr_sWrbxVSS
Qw2KNjg&e=>

Best,
Gregg
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