I wanted to write in quickly and say that I am greatly appreciative of this current thread and am looking forward to reading Nancy's response to Waldemar's. -Chance On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 11:47 AM Nancy Link <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Waldemar, Martin, Mark and Gregg, > > Waldemar, Thank your bring us back to the question of what are we really > talking about. It keeps us from talking past each other. > > I would like to explain what I mean by science, consciousness and mental > processes and then contrast my understanding with the comments made by > others. > > *Science* for me is that kind of knowledge produced using the scientific > method. It relies heavily on deduction. > > *Consciousness* for me is William James’s description of consciousness in *The > Principles of Psychology.* Consciousness is a flowing thing. It moves > seamlessly from one thought to another or to a feeling and then back to a > thought. It is always moving. The scientific method is ill suited to make > inroads into the problem of understanding this kind of material. On the > other hand, the clinical method is much better suited to gathering > information on consciousness because consciousness is what psychotherapists > work with. They listen to the conscious material that their patients > produce and wait for patterns to reoccur. A great deal of clinical thought > is based on the detection of repeating patterns. For example, transference > requires the detection of a repeating pattern, one having occurred in a > childhood relationship; the other in an adulthood relationship. Disease > classification also depends upon the detection of repeating patterns. > > I believe that an integrated science of psychology will come into being > when the findings about human functioning deriving from both methods are > accounted for within a single explanatory framework. > > For me, consciousness, the mind and *mental processes* are all > interchangeable. In making these things interchangeable, I am not ignoring > Freud’s contribution to the understanding of the unconsciousness or the > preconscious mind. > > Briefly, in my model, I see the mind as having evolved through 4 periods > during the course of evolution and these stages are reiterated > child development. > 1) The sensorimotor mind (found in babies, ages 4 months to 18 months) > Using this mind, babies learn to organize their behaviour in the pursuit of > goals. This mind evolved during the period from the stem mammals to the Old > world monkeys > 2) The dimensional mind (found in toddlers and preschoolers !8 months to > five years) Using this mind, children learn how to use alliances to attain > power. This mind evolved during the period beginning with the apes and > ending with early grade hominins. > 3) The narrative mind (school age children) Using this mind, child learn > how to tell stories, but more importantly they carry around images of whole > people inside their heads. This mind evolved during the tenure of the > mid-grade hominins. > 4) The formal abstract mind (adolescence, starting at 11 years.) This mind > is characterized by the ability to use abstract concepts to organize > thinking about tangible things. This mind evolved with the late-grade > hominins, including humans. > > The first two minds are organized through affect; the second two minds are > organized through language. We use each one of these minds as we go about > our daily activities. The latter two minds, the ones organized by language, > are more accessible to conscious awareness than the minds organized through > affect. > > Waldemar — For me, Freud’s preconscious and unconscious are more likely > to operate when we are using the first two minds. Sometimes during > childhood we learn to avoid paying attention to certain affects as a means > of controlling our own behaviour. This is my way of accounting for the > phenomenon of defences. > > Martin — Your bringing up the cognitive abilities of fish and birds makes > me think of an important difference between my thinking and the thinking > of almost every other psychologist that I know. I believe that the ability > to learn evolved within lineages. If we want to understand how the mind > of *Homo sapiens* evolved, we should pay attention to the learning > abilities that evolved within our lineage. For me that means forgetting > fish which split from our lineage about 4 million years ago and forgetting > birds, because they are not on our lineage. They evolved from the > reptiles. > > I find math daunting at the best of times. What I can say is that as you > were working out your math problem, you were using your formal abstract > mind. (Except for the part where you went to sleep and woke up with > an insight.) Counting systems are an abstraction which overarches tangible > things. > > Although I think that the learning abilities of fish are impressive, I do > not believe that they are capable of abstract thought, as I define it. > Words like symbolic thought and abstract thought need careful attention to > definition. > > Mark — As you so eloquently put it, there needs to be something new added > to what we are doing now to resolve the problem of psychology. The question > is what? We all draw upon our backgrounds to try to answer that question. > My background is clinical psychology. > > Gregg — I see most academics, including you, as overusing your formal > abstract mind at the expense of the other minds. (Certainly all the reinforcements > delivered in the university push in that direction.) You are deeply > intuitive and your theory is essentially correct, but it is presented in > conceptual boxes. For me, I have trouble connecting the boxes to a > narrative structure. For example, in the Architecture of the Human Mind > diagram, I notice that you have added concepts like working memory, > procedural memory, semantic memory, episodic memory and long term memory. > I agree that these concepts are critical to understanding the human mind, > but how do they connect to other concepts? I am working on a narrative > structure that tries to connect least some of these elements to others. > For example, I am asking questions like: What role does working memory > play in the ability to learn? When does it first appear in child > development and when did it first appear in evolution? What function did it > serve, when it first appeared in evolution? To me, it seems like answers to > questions such as these are necessary to build a coherent narrative > structure. > > For me, mental processes are anything that occurs inside the head: > thoughts, sensations, perceptions, affective feelings, all subjective > experience. It does not matter whether these experiences are attached > to behaviour or not. I would be interested in understanding your > distinction between consciousness and mental processes. > > With warm regards to all, > > Nancy > > From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> > on behalf of Waldemar Schmidt <[log in to unmask]> > Reply-To: tree of knowledge system discussion < > [log in to unmask]> > Date: Friday, November 16, 2018 at 4:20 PM > To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: blog on talking as a behavior or mental process > > Dear Friends: > > What fascinating ideas about mental processes, mind, consciousness, and > science. No idling grey matter on this list serve! > > But some of us, such as myself, are a little bit slower and need some > definitions. Sorry, that’s my reductionist training exerting itself. > Please understand that the following comments deal with methods and means > and not with person or persons. > > For instance, how is “science” being used? Wiktionary defines “science” > as: > > *science* > > 1. A particular discipline or branch of learning, especially one > dealing with measurable or systematic principles rather than intuition or > natural ability. [from 14th > > 2. Specifically the natural sciences > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_natural-5Fscience&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=-cbYA2VU5t-3f-fdo-wtYkjJPY7e0zCK12DtMwoeFYA&e=> > . > > 3. Knowledge > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_knowledge&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=coFevuvkx9ynHz2TeR37-tHYN-aS_-nSfaJkC4I1tOc&e=> gained > through study > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_study&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=dCElDACihsn-ziUhviIyvvGE_0vImUsOQfWjqe2EJCQ&e=> > or practice > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_practice&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=YseRT2bPwLNOfLTmnPkT76ZKrI-2YpuVuw5rZ9GJ87g&e=>; > mastery of a particular discipline or area. [from 14th c > > 4. The fact of knowing something; knowledge > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_knowledge&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=coFevuvkx9ynHz2TeR37-tHYN-aS_-nSfaJkC4I1tOc&e=> or > understanding of a truth. [from 14th c > > 5. The collective discipline of study or learning acquired through the scientific > method > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_scientific-5Fmethod&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=xd0rFmae1PGmS5A7VnXTXxNrH2DiU1wkS-P4hFJxKt8&e=>; > the sum of knowledge gained from such methods and discipline. [from 18th c > > 6. Knowledge derived from scientific disciplines, scientific method, > or any systematic effort. > > 7. The scientific community. > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_science&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=J9OALGJgRK-h4bBw-14f2pLCwkBxzFzIgeSaDK5ByiQ&s=KHlSHjv9f9-0e61QaOaqzYSNSoBSjKSNCwsmVMsS2V8&e= > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_science&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=IpmE1HgW6w1hw-06vvj96u1IYWhv91kiBYDAK8xQiSM&e=> > > > How is it being used in this discussion? This is important in terms of > the Wittgensteinian word game, n’est pas? My conception of “science” is > that principally it is a discipline, a method, a way of thinking, a > filtration means for dealing with disparate representations of reality > which tends towards finding and exploiting reproducible representations. That > is, centered around definition #1 above. But, more often than not, the > word “science” is used variably to mean, as it may be useful to a > particular contention with which it is associated, any or all of the other > definitions, just in case any one or more of them may affirm the contention > being made. > > OK, in case that seems nit picking – wait, there’s more – as the TV > hucksters proclaim. > > How are the words “mental processes,” “mind,” and “consciousness” being > used in this discussion? Again, I’ll refer to Wiktionary, since that is > easily accessible by all. > > *mental* > > 1. Of or relating to the mind > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mind&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=PoGUxNpZJbGZ-MVP1YIEdZOe1qcqzvCDpe0PrPtBedI&e=> or > an intellectual > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_intellect&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=bYKdSMH1aOkF_uCOZuJqWu5QwxOYXLxU8lkWjzN2lxc&e=> > process. > > 2. Insane > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_insane&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=w-rL22JHMDrosrPvUfy_OKkWu8Y6N1__0Z-wBoG62Ek&e=> > , mad > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mad&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=F339WLuifNNXnAp2YjDVsbdI0iGGba4Eijl2eXMU66M&e=> > , crazy > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_crazy&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=xXXthS8K4trxkP8nN6WWry8WtNPP0GuyZkho84SP7g4&e=> > . > > 3. Enjoyable > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_enjoyable&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=56lUFKRHJRxuPv9iIPfOBu4xR2YXkyB6sOETWSvOY24&e=> > or fun > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_fun&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=6pTCsnTso0nlbSz1gP3UUCCtQP7oBNOx5bFMjUpYbtE&e=>, > especially in a frenetic way. > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mental&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=J9OALGJgRK-h4bBw-14f2pLCwkBxzFzIgeSaDK5ByiQ&s=umFvn9zGXAmYKVhhM8WnNsm1ynhUWAXHarBSTWGzIHM&e= > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mental&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=iqHOvOiJdR_VJUtLLytfRJ5BcbdGMg0KX5zrOe7LO3k&e=> > > > > *mind* > > 1. The ability for rational > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_rational&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=ZPzsIsx3m8-7rXNOlVXH91ekDFzgF6rIkZ9sgv-SgyM&e=> > thought > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_thought&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=bpvxDKVGm-NW6yvgBp08Mrx3_dOPa3aVUR8H_1eJo4s&e=> > . > > 2. The ability > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_ability&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=5uOhyMO8RdHEqcw7Osa3II3v7zvCZzMe8m5Vt5BM0t0&e=> to > be aware > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_aware&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=sDFROvqrNWkh6iscOIijngg-hXmHCYPPrJwIhIGCy4s&e=> of > things. > > 3. The ability to remember things. > > 4. The ability to focus the thoughts. > > 5. Somebody that embodies certain mental qualities. > > 6. Judgment, opinion, or view. > > 7. Desire, inclination, or intention. > > 8. A healthy mental state. > > 9. The non- > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_non-2D&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=pHi0Yo0ewjQwnJKkN8yCcfoYCHXzgSatMycf921_Mcc&e=> > material > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_material&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=oVH_9HPqzEhzgLtBiU5NzPLNpWlU_KbA8Wjd3y_8kUI&e=> > substance > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_substance&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=HQkgE-nG29vmawdSdDDawNbSNtqeXHV4W0nvZ7qYGPQ&e=> or > set of processes > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_process&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=oo9NDaIrDRA66AGcbV9pyx5Iu9AvcRQSscm1eD54jVY&e=> in > which consciousness > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_consciousness&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=N5NQtfKssGCncmMohYMYoh4eLZiYLKVac8Xv_judpuE&e=> > , perception > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_perception&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=8eWPtT49qOoUCY5KtueMUICo9o5kA1AAiiTcBh73xKE&e=> > , affectivity > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_affectivity&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=de5v6fA2Z8-UlbndUhlNKsyhW8julFQ32j-7q2_l55o&e=> > , judgement > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_judgement&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=nkBcPGGCHgahkQUH_L0IVFSmM4RBo84jQ8_c7xAyLYA&e=> > , thinking > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_thinking&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=QdBT7r4EuwqqgdCSn4nc9ZhoM6rDwCvfkr9rgE3LaV0&e=>, > and will > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_will&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=Z4IVrlCWPV6JKiLCV-9_EkrkMEIyoO10PWhBSH2ER0k&e=> are > based. > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mind&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=J9OALGJgRK-h4bBw-14f2pLCwkBxzFzIgeSaDK5ByiQ&s=qxYmbibQjJe2XIEXUWSjFyPFGBGg6MCBfE6xOGM3294&e= > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mind&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=PoGUxNpZJbGZ-MVP1YIEdZOe1qcqzvCDpe0PrPtBedI&e=> > > > > *conscious* > > 1. Alert > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_alert&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=MYumFMIaAdY_gqkKoeY9Um_YSkfq0Yt5PxMMHwGbzdM&e=> > , awake > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_awake&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=57ELSfPbxtID1-hlgR09tgTZnRCkDN9AC7gMmKaew4g&e=>; > with one's mental > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_mental&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=iqHOvOiJdR_VJUtLLytfRJ5BcbdGMg0KX5zrOe7LO3k&e=> > faculties > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_faculty&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=12T0UQqJ0qw6RqPwvNL5m9z8p9IRn66uJW4a-Ooxw80&e=> > active. > > 2. Aware > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_aware&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=sDFROvqrNWkh6iscOIijngg-hXmHCYPPrJwIhIGCy4s&e=> of > one's own existence; aware > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_aware&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=sDFROvqrNWkh6iscOIijngg-hXmHCYPPrJwIhIGCy4s&e=> of > one's own awareness > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_awareness&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=KMF2BYFWGJg_fOYGIO4QvKmRUIfOwaDKlyA6hUzNZM8&e=> > . > > 3. Aware > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_aware&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=sDFROvqrNWkh6iscOIijngg-hXmHCYPPrJwIhIGCy4s&e=> > of, sensitive > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_sensitive&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=D19qfv16zyQXtzQs1g4J1zfFAvHWxrd2KHqXYKytIcY&e=> to; > observing and noticing, or being strongly interested in or concerned about. > > 4. Deliberate > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_deliberate&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=pBBA99rXxcnF9zE7xOog8mCsx10GOCGmgDU_BArcnww&e=> > , intentional > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_intentional&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=1Ourwcl47YAqCHQJafvYX5gzSvM61tQaen-w2Q-9q10&e=>, > done with awareness > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_awareness&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=KMF2BYFWGJg_fOYGIO4QvKmRUIfOwaDKlyA6hUzNZM8&e=> of > what one is doing. > > 5. Known > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_known&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=QvoQ3zsf733nRHgAP2YGMOamikEXaV0zS2Oip6ZrCDc&e=> > or felt > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_felt&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=eyd6RpjI5N5uubDYl4p-8XMEQFOCbFSwMb9-wfAcz0s&e=> personally, > internally by a person. > > 6. Self-conscious > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_self-2Dconscious&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=JjHK3yuqMzxSBSxg4B7Xkg0DhmR0Lm2Ecy6fqQFLQ8w&e=> > . > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_conscious&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=J9OALGJgRK-h4bBw-14f2pLCwkBxzFzIgeSaDK5ByiQ&s=U9XZEe9M8Yw6UK0yQSkSnoX9gwql1lfueiINkuXhr3A&e= > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wiktionary.org_wiki_conscious&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ZIAdwofhFVMlVxGtR1AgomVOUZzkyblkW4FgTuS147o&s=5lnKZ_QChjktNnwS6jAPx3F3-tmimSGuL-8LFUx_ygA&e=> > > > Clearly, “mental” as used in this discussion surely means the application > of definition #1 above. As such, I take it to be a sophisticated way to > state that “something is going on in the "mind.” Is there a more > specific way in which this word is being used in this discussion? > > “Mind,” on the other hand, appears to allude to a variety of psychological > functions, as well as affective, cognitive, and conative states. This wide > usage and reference leaves the word’s meaning too vague in meaningful > discussion. [Sorry, my reductionist opinion, to my mind (pun intended).] > > And, “consciousness” – how may we apprehend its use? The definitions > above seem uniformly confined to understanding this state in a singular way > – as does “mind, by the way. That is, implicit is the perception of > reference to the conscious state – as opposed to either the pre-conscious > or the unconscious state. > > Which leads me to suggest the following: > > PastedGraphic-3.tiff > > (Apologies, as needed, to Gregg’s > more instructive Human Mind Diagrams) > > > In this representation, the “mind” includes all three levels of activity – > the conscious, the pre-conscious, and the unconscious, as well as the > sympathetic nervous system, the endocrine system, and the body in general. > But, more commonly, when we refer to the “mind” we imply CNS mental > activity of which we are consciously aware. Whereas, in terms of > consciousness we are only aware of the “conscious mind” component and > partially/intermittently aware of the “pre-conscious” component while, by > definition, being unaware of the “unconscious mind” component and processes > therein. On the other hand, “mental processes” occur in the “mind” at all > levels, while “consciousness” refers predominantly to our awareness of > mental processes at the “conscious mind” level. With extended effort, > consciousness is able to access some of the mental processes at the > “preconscious mind” level. With greater effort, and some professional > help, we might access some of the mental processes at the “unconscious > mind” level. > > An example is provided by Martin’s email about his mathematics > deliberations. As he writes, it was when he awoke that he experienced > further insight to his maths problem – after consideration of Gregg and > Linda’s comments. This suggests (to me the reductionist) that his > non-consciousness “unconscious mind” mental processes were at work > assisting his consciouness “conscious mind” to evolve a resolution. > > Sometimes it seems to me that humanities-type writing includes dependence > upon unstated assumptions and an unclearly defined use of words. It might > be prudent to consider such as to do so may not be in the best interests of > The TOK Society’s efforts. > > Just in case Wittgenstein is right! > Best regards, > > Waldemar > > *Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD* > (Perseveret et Percipiunt) > 503.631.8044 > > *Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. (A Einstein)* > > On Nov 16, 2018, at 6:49 AM, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > Thanks, Nancy. > > To me, this is a great topic for our list. I would be curious to hear your > thoughts on how you define/characterize mental processes and consciousness. > > I encourage others to chime in also. > > I am in the thick of my next book, The Problem of Psychology and Its > Solution. It argues directly that modern empirical/textbook psychology is > anchored to methodological behaviorism, where behavior is what we measure > and mind is the cause or force or whatever that is inferred. Via the UTUA > language game, I am delineating a new way to define these concepts. I will > say here that the three concepts are very different in the UTUA system. > Mental processes are not synonymous with consciousness in my language game. > Indeed, I see it as crucial that the two are separated. > > Warm regards, > Gregg > > > > > > *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion < > [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *Nancy Link > *Sent:* Thursday, November 15, 2018 3:34 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: blog on talking as a behavior or mental process > > Hi Gregg, > > I agree completely with what you have said in this blog. > > I think that the study of mental processes (consciousness) continues to be > seriously disadvantaged because the way that psychology was initially set > up. > > To the extent that it is seriously studied, it is studied by the > psychotherapists who work with the material of consciousness. > > Nancy > > *From: *tree of knowledge system discussion < > [log in to unmask]> on behalf of Gregg Henriques < > [log in to unmask]> > *Reply-To: *tree of knowledge system discussion < > [log in to unmask]> > *Date: *Thursday, November 15, 2018 at 10:43 AM > *To: *"[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]> > *Subject: *blog on talking as a behavior or mental process > > Hi List, > Hope this finds everyone well. I had an exchange yesterday with Steve > Quackenbush on the deep problems with modern empirical psychology, and it > prompted the following short blog: > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201811_is-2Dtalking-2Dbehavior-2Dor-2Dmental-2Dprocess&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=J9OALGJgRK-h4bBw-14f2pLCwkBxzFzIgeSaDK5ByiQ&s=2AEJLFqE-cFSGfv9v0I4wxTSC8xh1muPIWLqRwrvHxc&e= > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_us_blog_theory-2Dknowledge_201811_is-2Dtalking-2Dbehavior-2Dor-2Dmental-2Dprocess&d=DwMFAg&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=OniJrklPJVN62FIay4fbiT4SnefsFPZ6AWAHxi0gG_8&s=Eg23DNnrxK_LcrlLt3OuNNNgFwr_sWrbxVSSQw2KNjg&e=> > > Best, > Gregg > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > ############################ To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1