On Sunday, December 9, 2018, 4:40:37 PM EST, nysa71 <[log in to unmask]> wrote:



Hi Gregg & All,

Yes, we have discussed MBTI quite a bit before. LOL! Though, as I've mentioned before, I've become a bit more intrigued with Socionics, which was a "type" system also derived from Jung's work, but in the former Soviet bloc countries, independently of Myers-Briggs. So it never "caught on" here in the West like MBTI, though I think it's a bit more sophisticated. Socionics also focuses extensively on inter-type relations and small groups of four types called quaternions, (of which there are 140) which (in turn) can be grouped together by four called tetrachotomies, (of which there are 35 --- 4 x 35 = 140)  . Hence, the types are often referred to as "socio-types".

In regards to the type vs. trait dichotomy, I think it's safe to say that both are typically grounded in a Formistic "World Hypothesis", (hearkening back to Pepper's four World Hypotheses that Steve introduced us to awhile back). Both are analytic and dispersive, though it seems that there is a mild trade-off between scope and precision when it comes to type and trait --- the former trading off greater precision for greater scope, and vice-versa for the latter. So perhaps one could say that both are grounded in the same "type" of world hypothesis, with a difference in degree of the "trait" of dispersiveness. 

In regards to disorders and their correlates on the Influence Matrix (IM), if disordered types can be conceptualized as "rigid extremes of underlying dimensions", then would it not stand to reason that there exists the possibility that more "ordered" types would be less rigid and less extreme on those same dimensions? Why not have six "ordered" types that are less "extreme" than those "disordered" types? Where does one, for example, transition from an  "ordered" Dominant type to a "disordered" Narcissistic type?

Going back to MBTI and Socionics, I Googled a paper on correlations between Jungian types and personality disorders entitled, "An Empirical Investigation of Jung's Psychological Types and Personality Disorder Features". The authors concluded that MBTI may have some heuristic value for understanding personality disorders. 

A couple of the results were that  the (1) paranoid, (2) passive-aggressive, and (3) depressive personality disorders correlated with the IxTx types, and that histrionic personality disorder correlated with the ExFx types.

Interestingly, the first and third letters correspond with what's called  "Communication Styles" in Socionics.

EF types are referred to as the Passionate Style

This group is most confident in their attitudes towards other people and not afraid to openly show and talk of their feelings, likes and dislikes, and ethical evaluations. These sociotypes are the most sociable ones in informal contact.

Their position in a conversation is an active search for feelings. They bring emotions to people around them. In their life scenarios, it is typical of them to marry earlier on the average than individuals other sociotypes. However, they also separate and divorce more frequently than other sociotypes. These types understand dialogue as an exchange of emotions, as a kind of "sailing" through active currents of life.

IT types are referred to as the Cold-Blooded Style:

People of these types are not confident in their feelings and act restrained in their emotional displays. These types are the least sociable ones in informal contact.

Their communication style is opposite to the "Passionate" group. Their position in an informal dialogue is a passive anticipation of feelings. Communication of these types flows according to established courses and norms. Their life scenarios suggest that they marry later in life than representatives of other types and are not inclined to re-marry. Their marriages, as a rule, are the least successful. They understand communication as an exchange of lacking information of explanatory nature. Such communication doesn't lose much if it is carried out only in a written form.

Now judging by those descriptions, I can see how the Passionate Style --- if taken to a "rigid extreme" --- could correlate with histrionic disorder, and the Cold-Blooded Style --- again, if taken to a rigid extreme --- could correlate with any one of those three disorders mentioned above.

Indeed, in less extreme forms, I could see how those two styles of communication could potentially fit on the Freedom from Influence dimension of the IM. Those who lean towards the autonomous side could be more "cold-blooded" in their communication style, and those who lean towards the dependency side could be more "passionate" in their communication style.

Any thoughts?
Jason 














On Sunday, December 9, 2018, 8:55:47 AM EST, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


Interesting “question,” Jason. I like the framing in terms of justification and consistency, as it allows us to see, in clear form, “justification dynamics” at work in the context of justification systems and social influence.

 

There are a number of issues. First, for those who don’t know, Jason and I have a history of dialoguing about the Myers-Briggs Typology. The MBTI is a tool used lots by folks outside of psychology, but inside the field of psych assessment, the measure and system does not get much attention. I think there is a bit of elitist snobbery operating, as I think the MBTI is a useful way to carve up features of the human psyche/human behavioral tendencies. The second technical MBTI issue pertains to whether the theory, questionnaires and related concepts should be thought of in terms of dimensions that people score high, average, or low on, or if they represent genuine essential-type categories. I am happy to revisit that specific question if you would like. But the challenge here was more about types in general and so I will move to that.

I am not opposed to thinking about types in “ordered” folks. Of course, as Alexander alluded to, the “ordered versus disordered” type distinction is fraught with complexity. But I think the idea of a role-model or adaptive personality type has good evidence for it (see attached). In fact, here is a half hour discussion I did with my brother on what is an “adaptive personality type.” It is the “OCEAN” profile of high on the first four of the big five traits and low on the N. I would guess additional research will add “g” (as in general IQ) and perhaps “H” as in honor and humility (and probably humor), to give a “high OCEAN g H” profile for the adaptive “ordered” personality type. (Needless to say the idea of a “high g H floating on an adaptive OCEAN of traits” is appealing to myself as a founding ToKer 😊)

 

I also agree with Alexander’s comment and like animus and anima as archetypes. In terms of personality-human psychology, the Matrix supports an agentic/masculine/self-oriented “type” relative to a communal/feminine/other-oriented type. That is the upper left versus lower right quadrant distinction.

 

Two more points and I will wrap up and you can decide about my being hypocritical. First, if we look at medicine, we do see some justification for thinking more about types when we are looking at disorders than ordered. After all, the disordered is defined by a type of thing that has gone wrong. There are many kinds of kidney diseases, but not too many kinds of normal healthy human kidneys (at least I suspect this to be the case. In saying this, I should note there are some clear examples of normal typology in physiology, like the variety of normal blood types, A, B, O, +/- ). Of course, I argue that mental pathology is importantly different from bio-organic, but that is another issue.

 

Second, if we look at the blog on personality disorders that sparked your comment, I actually take the categorical types and put them on a dimensional system and show that they are rigid extremes of underlying dimensions. So the current case in point is taking an overly categorical system (the DSM personality system) and showing that the supposed essential types are best understood as manifestations of high or low ends of a continuum of underlying relational process dimensions.  

 

Bottom line, the category type versus dimension issue is complicated. And surprisingly enough, given the nature of justification dynamics, I think I need more evidence is required to demonstrate that my arguments are of a “inconsistent” type 😊.

 

Best,

Gregg

 

From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of nysa71
Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2018 6:46 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Some articles on Human Relating

 

Hi Gregg,

I find it odd (and quite inconsistent) that you and other psychologists seem to have no problem with personality types when it comes to "disordered" personality types, but are resistant to personality types when it comes to "ordered" personality types.

What's the justification for that inconsistency? 

~ Jason

 

On Saturday, December 8, 2018, 12:25:19 PM EST, Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

 

 

Hi List,

  Here is an article on “The Social Leap” and how human relationships (cooperation, competition, talking) set the stage for our jump into modern people:

https://www.realclearscience.com/2018/12/07/why_humans_evolved_into_such_good_bsers_283901.html

 

  Here is an article I did today, applying the Influence Matrix and Horney’s psychodynamic analysis of relational styles to the DSM personality disorders, showing that some personality disorders are polar opposites to others:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/theory-knowledge/201812/are-some-personality-disorders-polar-opposites-others

 

Happy weekending 😊,

G

 

___________________________________________

Gregg Henriques, Ph.D.
Professor
Department of Graduate Psychology
216 Johnston Hall
MSC 7401
James Madison University
Harrisonburg, VA 22807
(540) 568-7857 (phone)
(540) 568-4747 (fax)


Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity.

Check out my Theory of Knowledge blog at Psychology Today at:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/theory-knowledge

 

Check out my webpage at:

www.gregghenriques.com

 

 

 

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