Hi Alexander,



Great, thanks for your reply, it’s nice to know what other people believe,
(“immortality” would be hell), even if I have troubles understanding that.
I wasn’t aware of any differences between transhumanism and posthumanism.
If I knew how posthumanism was masochistic, I’d probably not want to
support that.



I think it would be great if everyone could know what everyone believes
about this kind of stuff, concisely and quantitatively.  The first step to
getting everyone everything they truly want is first knowing what that is.



I’m seeing a possible consensus supper camp here.  In the does death give
meaning to life topic:



https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__canonizer.com_index.php_topic_67-2DDeath-2DGives-2DMeaning-2D_1&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=dxBNUafOvvMweIEj-ozDreG_t9TH7L6sqXiuRm9Wzak&s=buUopBUI_wYABnp9tyq34G_gFW6FXmOS09YLFvNFb5g&e=



I propose we create a supper camp named: “Survival is good”.  Surely no
current supporters of any camp would object to supporting such a supper
camp, so we could move both current camps unto supporting sub camps of that
supper camp.  I wonder if any of the “Yes” camp supporters would object to
finally adding a simple camp statement like: ‘” Immortality” would be pure
hell.’  Would it be beneficial if everyone could know who and how many
people believe this, and how many don’t?



Brent



On Sat, Jan 5, 2019 at 3:29 AM Alexander Bard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Dearest Mark
>
> On what grounds is it a given that the Digital Sphere is doomed to be
> posthumanist?
> You may be right but I would love to hear your take on that. I doubt that
> we are that deterministic, are we? How do we know this early?
> I would rather view the current obsession with transhumanism (which I like
> and was part of from the very beginning) and posthumanism (which I dislike
> deeply, especially as it is a human all too human and highly masochistic
> concept) as incredibly television-inspired first reactions to the overload
> from digital. Because every one of these transhumanists grew up on Star
> Trek and Star Wars and not in the digital realm (where they for the last 30
> years have been doing nothing but play television-copying computer games
> built on Star Trek and Star Wars). Meanwhile Elon Musk is literally
> building a rocket to Mars that however is likely to only send bacteria
> there but no Elon Musik to outer space (the one thing the robots will do is
> to conquer space without us and without understanding why they were
> programmed to do so).
> I still think the word is out on what "digital" even is. Maybe today's
> seven-year-olds are beginning to come to grips with it? Until then, let's
> give the post-humanists a hard time.
> Hey, they don't even have a unifying narrative. Mostly they are just a
> bunch of isolated autists doing nose jobs and silicon tits like mad. So
> they are the future? Hardly.
> And to Brain Alsop, if you want to live forever how about getting a life
> here and now? Begin by reading Heidegger and then ask yourself why vampires
> want to die so desperately. Yes, I'm all for survival and extension of
> survival. But like Jacques Derrida so wisely said extended "survival" is
> one thing, "immortality" would be just pure hell.
>
> Best intentions
> Alexander
>
> Den fre 4 jan. 2019 kl 15:25 skrev Mark Stahlman <[log in to unmask]>:
>
>> IDWers:
>>
>> As many of you know, the "hot topic" today in many places (particularly
>> "philosophical" ones) is called Posthumanism.  It is active at NYU and I
>> have participated in some of their events.  I was supposed to be included
>> in the NY group's involvement in the XXIVth World Congress for Philosophy
>> in Beijing this past summer, where there were many sessions on the topic,
>> but ran into problems with "permission" for the other meetings I was going
>> to have (which then took place in October.)
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__wcp2018.pku.edu.cn_yw_index.htm&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=dxBNUafOvvMweIEj-ozDreG_t9TH7L6sqXiuRm9Wzak&s=FaQIKx5QwStE5aIal1leMIVN48BjORNn-EaQ_GmZAXY&e=
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__wcp2018.pku.edu.cn_yw_index.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jNls1xy_GU8fXI3Kv_U_2p5phRwmfAIpQgpyjpaDIO8&s=7Ui7RktiXveJ_apQiiTTeAtHfWtarz19BPe-FV2QxA4&e=>
>>
>> It is the view of the Center that there are now globally Three Spheres:
>> East, West and Digital and that the Digital Sphere has "posthumanity" as
>> its goal.  This is related (but not identical) to the older
>> "transhumanism."  Aspects of this -- minus the larger context -- have been
>> discussed in the "What is Intelligence?" thread.
>>
>> This announcement appeared this AM on the NYU group's Facebook page, so I
>> pass it along for discussion here --
>>
>> Stefan Lorenz Sorgner
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.facebook.com_stefan.sorgner-3Ffref-3Dgs-26-5F-5Ftn-5F-5F-3D-252CdlC-2DR-2DR-26eid-3DARD677M0Ca-2DsOPJyFnMoMNMfywygRwmHAWXk71OqM54-5FylUiLMUwf2RjCLYg-5FGb9K-5FoLeYFicgH8VBhz-26hc-5Fref-3DARSj8eghSQHLpujo5BPYR3bb-2DurC5Mo95vNuLxH1EmPkcfI-2D4rdWLqr6nYmdloZTOug-26dti-3D1393341940933102-26hc-5Flocation-3Dgroup&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jNls1xy_GU8fXI3Kv_U_2p5phRwmfAIpQgpyjpaDIO8&s=-jTfJAwydI9pK2pmCvTymfAc4AimcrnT3JkrZt_hBl0&e=> shared
>> a link
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.facebook.com_groups_nyposthuman_permalink_2223414994592455_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jNls1xy_GU8fXI3Kv_U_2p5phRwmfAIpQgpyjpaDIO8&s=SOFPDzQSeV8BOSNHkC181KFivaYTAIzR4CrnNKiyzak&e=>
>> .
>> 51 mins
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.facebook.com_groups_nyposthuman_permalink_2223414994592455_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jNls1xy_GU8fXI3Kv_U_2p5phRwmfAIpQgpyjpaDIO8&s=SOFPDzQSeV8BOSNHkC181KFivaYTAIzR4CrnNKiyzak&e=>
>>
>> PLEASE SHARE the following information for all scholars of the posthuman:
>>
>> The oldest publishing house in the world, Schwabe publishing (founded
>> 1488), deeply rooted in the humanist tradition, embraces the intellectual
>> engagement with one of the most significant debates of our time: Posthuman
>> Studies: From Critical Posthumanism to Transhumanism. The series explicitly
>> targets the international audience. All books will be peer-reviewed,
>> copyedited, and internationally distributed. There are no printing cost
>> subsidies. Please submit your manuscipt to Prof. Stefan Lorenz Sorgner, if
>> you want it to be considered for this book series: www.sorgner.de
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.sorgner.de_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jNls1xy_GU8fXI3Kv_U_2p5phRwmfAIpQgpyjpaDIO8&s=VFDQacmX3fMPAJl_uIEPth0JV3mkea5iX_rvvuZTD4o&e=>
>>
>> Here you find some more information about this newly launched book
>> series: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__beyondhumanism.org_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=dxBNUafOvvMweIEj-ozDreG_t9TH7L6sqXiuRm9Wzak&s=8GdwVvsI_GFr9LYGOdJG7_knF7oPBfsXI6zinc73WBA&e=…/Flyer_Call-for-Manuscripts_Fina…
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__beyondhumanism.org_wp-2Dcontent_uploads_2018_08_Flyer-5FCall-2Dfor-2DManuscripts-5FFinal-5Flow.pdf&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jNls1xy_GU8fXI3Kv_U_2p5phRwmfAIpQgpyjpaDIO8&s=hzvujqkAcbLwGMgkYy4Zj3fHTPs-vRFaYwZz2lWds-U&e=>
>>
>> If you merely wish to publish a paper, please consider submitting it to
>> the "Journal of Posthuman Studies" which was launched by Penn State
>> University Press in 2017. It is the first academic journal explicitly
>> dedicated to the posthuman:
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.psupress.org_Journals_jnls-5FJPHS.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=dxBNUafOvvMweIEj-ozDreG_t9TH7L6sqXiuRm9Wzak&s=fGtxXy-DGq-LALd7W_JaFp6FrHg5irPUHz1cT_83XbE&e=
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.psupress.org_Journals_jnls-5FJPHS.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jNls1xy_GU8fXI3Kv_U_2p5phRwmfAIpQgpyjpaDIO8&s=oHn1fFcNTuTiGKg3nDENks3Q-af1xZSRbpGpdAtFBag&e=>
>>
>> To meet other scholars of the posthuman, the best place to be is the 11th
>> Beyond Humanism conference which is dedicated to the following theme in
>> 2019: Critical Posthumanism and Transhumanism: The Posthuman Paradigm
>> Shift. It will take place from the 9th until the 12th of July 2019 at the
>> Catholic University of Lille, France, Faculty of Arts and Humanities,
>> ETHICS EA-7446. Here, you find the Call for Papers:
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__beyondhumanism.org_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=dxBNUafOvvMweIEj-ozDreG_t9TH7L6sqXiuRm9Wzak&s=8GdwVvsI_GFr9LYGOdJG7_knF7oPBfsXI6zinc73WBA&e=
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__beyondhumanism.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jNls1xy_GU8fXI3Kv_U_2p5phRwmfAIpQgpyjpaDIO8&s=uokP1W9wTQtmoDgpgavwb8-XjfCQB1P87nnuBTzrjP4&e=>
>>
>>
>>
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__beyondhumanism.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jNls1xy_GU8fXI3Kv_U_2p5phRwmfAIpQgpyjpaDIO8&s=uokP1W9wTQtmoDgpgavwb8-XjfCQB1P87nnuBTzrjP4&e=>
>>
>>
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__beyondhumanism.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jNls1xy_GU8fXI3Kv_U_2p5phRwmfAIpQgpyjpaDIO8&s=uokP1W9wTQtmoDgpgavwb8-XjfCQB1P87nnuBTzrjP4&e=>
>> Mark
>>
>> P.S. Yes, it is ironic that PRINT ("the oldest publishing house in the
>> world") is getting involved in this.  PRINT was the enemy of SCRIBAL,
>> eliminating perhaps 80% of the materials that had been written by scribes,
>> ushering in what McLuhan called the "Gutenberg Galaxy."  PRINT was already
>> "posthuman" in the sense that it took human communications and mechanized
>> it, replacing the human hand in the process.  When PRINT was itself being
>> replaced by the ELECTRIC psycho-technological environment in the late-19th
>> century, this led to the invention of the Typewriter, a machine that
>> allowed humans to pretend that they were a printing press.  I have know
>> people with massive collections of early typewriters and, if you are
>> inclined to observe the behaviors involved, I recommend the recent movie
>> "California Typewriter" (complete with the logo that replaces the human
>> head with a machine) . . . !!
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__californiatypewritermovie.com_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=dxBNUafOvvMweIEj-ozDreG_t9TH7L6sqXiuRm9Wzak&s=kNwuNg6PvM7jQZMvnEly46j4UtFpdE7rEAX8FK_ikec&e=
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__californiatypewritermovie.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jNls1xy_GU8fXI3Kv_U_2p5phRwmfAIpQgpyjpaDIO8&s=1R2dbwUjIyHzaygxj8opETtfjf7DrkkMdeah-PA7n2g&e=>
>>
>> P.P.S.  In case you weren't convinced of my commitment to the "scribal
>> hand," here is a graphic that I used many years ago on my business cards
>> for my consulting company . . . <g>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> To view this discussion on the web visit
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>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_d_msgid_intellectual-2Ddeep-2Dweb_077eee19-2D2d94-2D4e1b-2D9177-2D6bf81e9a130a-2540googlegroups.com-3Futm-5Fmedium-3Demail-26utm-5Fsource-3Dfooter&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jNls1xy_GU8fXI3Kv_U_2p5phRwmfAIpQgpyjpaDIO8&s=Cb5lXF2An20FvzZFQ0vMCetL6DmQgJq2Noiskp_Z_8s&e=>
>> .
>> For more options, visit https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_d_optout&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=dxBNUafOvvMweIEj-ozDreG_t9TH7L6sqXiuRm9Wzak&s=AU2LTtkjGXYW6K_Sc7PqqSsj2z4xeH8UNJaobo-Y7iE&e=
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_d_optout&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=jNls1xy_GU8fXI3Kv_U_2p5phRwmfAIpQgpyjpaDIO8&s=kYip7t3wqaUB_Bl613rY4K8-Er-Okxe7n6AmcZbC9Y4&e=>
>> .
>>
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