Harm? Wounding? Injury? On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 11:48 AM Brent Allsop <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Hi John, > > > > “Perhaps is it blood?” for which “red” is a label for. > > > > You’re still not picking up on how this is sloppy thinking and sloppy > definitions about physical qualities. Wouldn’t it be more accurate to > state that red is a label for any physical surface that reflects, or emits > “red” light? And, again, if you engineered a red green signal inverter in > the retina, now your knowledge of the blood (or anything that reflects or > emits red light) has a greenness quality. So, does this not prove that it > isn’t ‘blood’ that has a physically causal redness (or greenness) quality? > > > > So, if “red” is a label for any physical surface that reflects or emits > “red” light, which physical quality is “redness” a label for? > > > Brent > > > > > On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 3:43 AM JOHN TORDAY <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> Hi Brent and List, thanks Brent for your patience in trying to understand >> how my 'take' on evolution differs from Darwin. And yes, your paraphrasing >> is correct, so I hope that's helpful. And as for 'which quality is red a >> label for' as I had said, perhaps it is blood? There is an article in the >> literature that hypothesizes that color vision evolved from blood, which I >> will try to find. John >> >> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 10:15 PM Brent Allsop <[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi John, >>> >>> >>> >>> I think I’m starting to better understand what you are saying. Let me >>> see if I can repeat what you are talking about, to see if I’m starting to >>> understand. >>> >>> >>> >>> Darwinian evolution models only really model things like achieving more >>> offspring. Whereas considering cell-cell communication in embryologic >>> development as central better models homeostasis superimposed on >>> phylogeny. This is a better way to understand the process of evolution. >>> >>> >>> >>> I still have a question for you, about what you mean when you say: “perhaps >>> we see *'red'* when we are writhing in pain because it references >>> bleeding as a process related to pain”. I understand what you mean, >>> abstractly. But I have no idea what you mean, qualitatively. In order to >>> know what red means, qualitatively, you must tell me which physical quality >>> it is a label for. Since you never do this, I can’t know what you mean, >>> qualitatively, when you use the term *“red”.* >>> >>> >>> >>> So that is my question, which physical quality do you consider red to be >>> a label for? >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 6:10 AM JOHN TORDAY <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Gregg, Brent, Aeon and List, if I could just jump in here, much of >>>> what is being said by all needs IMHO to be reconsidered in light of the >>>> difference between descriptive and mechanistic Biology/Physiology. So for >>>> example, semiotics is a description of what I have been referring to with >>>> respect to the centrality of cell-cell communication in embryologic >>>> development and homeostasis superimposed on phylogeny as the way to >>>> understand the process of evolution. That's very different from Darwinian >>>> evolution based on a reproductive strategy for more offspring, which is a >>>> materialistic viewpoint. In terms of Brent's quest for answering the 'Hard >>>> Question' of Qualia, I think the answer lies in the way I have recalibrated >>>> Pleiotropy, the capacity of biology to recombine/repermute the same gene >>>> for multiple purposes over the course of evolution. Up until now that >>>> phenomenon has remained a fascinoma, but seen in the context of evolution, >>>> it is explained by the pre-adaptational strategy of reutilizing genes under >>>> duress as the most economical way of solving existential problems >>>> evolutionarily. In the context of Qualia, perhaps we see 'red' when we are >>>> writhing in pain because it references bleeding as a process related to >>>> pain, the two processes being linked through common cellular-molecular >>>> signaling mechanisms. As for Aeon, I fully ascribe to the idea that we need >>>> to address how to re-synthesize philosophy and empiricism if I am correct >>>> in thinking that we've gotten evolution 'backwards' and that the >>>> unicellular state is the primary level of selection based on the emerging >>>> knowledge of epigenetic inheritance. With the Best of Intentions. John >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 7:42 AM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx < >>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi List, >>>>> >>>>> A friend sent this essay in Aeon on the relationship between >>>>> philosophy and science and the need to return to a natural philosophy >>>>> approach: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__aeon.co_essays_bring-2Dback-2Dscience-2Dand-2Dphilosophy-2Das-2Dnatural-2Dphilosophy-3Futm-5Fsource-3DAeon-2BNewsletter-26utm-5Fcampaign-3D16c95a1325-2DEMAIL-5FCAMPAIGN-5F2019-5F05-5F13-5F03-5F04-26utm-5Fmedium-3Demail-26utm-5Fterm-3D0-5F411a82e59d-2D16c95a1325-2D69915925&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Ex2LfLJjyYGsVV6gc1-BiqHKorIq2jm2Y_DWIQYJVkU&s=PmNg-gB4nnttmMsIKTBJeU434E5BgwNR9nfTYT1SSVk&e= >>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__aeon.co_essays_bring-2Dback-2Dscience-2Dand-2Dphilosophy-2Das-2Dnatural-2Dphilosophy-3Futm-5Fsource-3DAeon-2BNewsletter-26utm-5Fcampaign-3D16c95a1325-2DEMAIL-5FCAMPAIGN-5F2019-5F05-5F13-5F03-5F04-26utm-5Fmedium-3Demail-26utm-5Fterm-3D0-5F411a82e59d-2D16c95a1325-2D69915925&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=dFVdlOFuFfkQC0g6biXlvVLZsP2vJxZfvnsSXc39KVU&s=0_AzQ9yI47iQK9ucAwT5NR2XIcx2ABsrsNB05yuKWPY&e=> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am on Maxwell’s Friends of Wisdom list as I became aware of his >>>>> work several months ago. It is a similar, although also different vision >>>>> for philosophy and science than the ToK System offers. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> G >>>>> >>>>> ___________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> Gregg Henriques, Ph.D. >>>>> Professor >>>>> Department of Graduate Psychology >>>>> 216 Johnston Hall >>>>> MSC 7401 >>>>> James Madison University >>>>> Harrisonburg, VA 22807 >>>>> (540) 568-7857 (phone) >>>>> (540) 568-4747 (fax) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Be that which enhances dignity and well-being with integrity.* >>>>> >>>>> Check out my Theory of Knowledge blog at Psychology Today at: >>>>> >>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_blog_theory-2Dknowledge&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Ex2LfLJjyYGsVV6gc1-BiqHKorIq2jm2Y_DWIQYJVkU&s=8NoklSNDXWMbnbGMBBPi5ZqNwP5nL2PlixW504EZKtA&e= >>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.psychologytoday.com_blog_theory-2Dknowledge&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=dFVdlOFuFfkQC0g6biXlvVLZsP2vJxZfvnsSXc39KVU&s=hPnpDpg37-IlprEcDtCmrkgtNgPexNBHLnt_yDLVIXo&e=> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ############################ >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >>>>> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >>>>> following link: >>>>> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >>>>> >>>> ############################ >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >>>> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >>>> following link: >>>> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >>>> >>> ############################ >>> >>> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >>> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >>> following link: >>> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >>> >> ############################ >> >> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >> following link: >> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >> > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > ############################ To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1