Hi Gregg and TOK, thank you for your kind words and thoughts. The intent of invoking Relativity Theory is to be all-inclusive, but it may be a 'bridge too far'.....gotta have goals. I think that 'pain' is subjective, and may/not mean 'ouch'.....in a plant it may just be an aversive reaction to something that it finds undesirable. Given that we are mobile whereas plants are not I wouldn't think that 'ouch' would be response, but the net result would be the same-ish. I have attached a recent paper by Frantisek Baluska, a German botonist and Arthur Reber, a clinical psychologist that may/not be of interest. Frantisek is the Keynote Speaker at that Consciousness meeting I am also speaking at fyi.....John On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 7:54 AM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx < [log in to unmask]> wrote: > Hi TOK, > > Cool thoughts, John. On this topic, here are some interesting articles > about what plants might “feel” that my brother shared with me: > > > > *https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.peta.org_about-2Dpeta_faq_what-2Dabout-2Dplants_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=U03kSP2uYVWZ6m5RezM0t4bwvIrwBgT7ExgKR0DHTFQ&s=qDqAEERAVjbKT2-vhqfgTq91kAfgCMIbRSt6WFgU89c&e= > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.peta.org_about-2Dpeta_faq_what-2Dabout-2Dplants_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=U03kSP2uYVWZ6m5RezM0t4bwvIrwBgT7ExgKR0DHTFQ&s=qDqAEERAVjbKT2-vhqfgTq91kAfgCMIbRSt6WFgU89c&e=>* > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__science.howstuffworks.com_life_botany_plants-2Dfeel-2Dpain.htm&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=U03kSP2uYVWZ6m5RezM0t4bwvIrwBgT7ExgKR0DHTFQ&s=pCMzOSR5BfSnsbxa_0208B4UXFI83Lw7T10zzLulB9o&e= > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__science.howstuffworks.com_life_botany_plants-2Dfeel-2Dpain.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=wjF8cZoiFchamTuxBdDEmw&m=K3sr1bqZ0C1vQ-EBF9LTt5e4QFOjnSJzQB3uqW3f0Y0&s=Q6lxSBOL5wQSmBZSRxrY5dnR5cuiwWQSVo6HdEEkxiY&e=> > > > > For me, I completely agree that this stuff demonstrates plants exhibit > aversion and withdrawal behaviors that are the roots of what we call > “pain”. I would like to call them “proto-pain-behaviors”. However, I am a > skeptic regarding “plant sentience,” although they clearly exhibit > functional avoidance and aversion responses. When my son Jon badly broke > his arm, the docs put him under and they tried to set it. Andee and I > watched as his body writhed and he moaned and he pulled away. Was he “in > pain” or did he “feel pain” as it happened? One of my “flashbulb” memories > was when, twenty minutes later, he woke up and cried out “I am alive!”. I > don’t think he felt pain during that time, at least in any we mean the term > (although you might argue yes and he does not remember). Yet he exhibited > behavior that was far more indicative of pain than the evidence cited for > plant pain. The body (ours and plants) has lots of “functional awareness > and response” mechanisms in it…but it is always tricky to sort out what > observers see as patterns of behavior and what is (or is not) going on at > the first person level of experience. > > > > Best, > > Gregg > > > > > > *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion < > [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *JOHN TORDAY > *Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2019 6:21 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Qualia > > > > Dear Brent and TOK, in putting together a brief talk on Consciousness, I > had to reduce my cell biologic approach to the problem due to time > constraints. So I decided to start with E=mc2 as the mathematical > expression of the Singularity of the Cosmos (I assume we're all good on > Einstein). Based on that 'logic', development of the embryo as cell-cell > signaling is the conversion of 'mass' (growth factors) into 'energy' (the > downstream interaction of the growth factor with its receptor (think 'lock > and key'), triggering an intracellular cascade of high energy phosphates > that ultimately affect growth and differentiation of the embryo, > culminating in homeostatic physiology at birth. The aggregate of those > cell-cell interactions is Consciousness, bearing in mind that the origin of > the brain is the skin as a graphic. That would explain Qualia as the way in > which experiences trigger consciousness, i.e. why seeing 'red' free > associates with the physiology of the individual, bearing in mind that > those homeostatic signaling cascades reference not only the physiology of > the current individual, but their past experiences as a species as > evolution too, so the Qualia go way back in the history of the organism. I > hope that was helpful. > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > ############################ To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1