Hi Gregg and TOK, thank you for your kind words and thoughts. The intent of
invoking Relativity Theory is to be all-inclusive, but it may be a 'bridge
too far'.....gotta have goals.
I think that 'pain' is subjective, and may/not mean 'ouch'.....in a plant
it may just be an aversive reaction to something that it finds undesirable.
Given that we are mobile whereas plants are not I wouldn't think that
'ouch' would be response, but the net result would be the same-ish. I have
attached a recent paper by Frantisek Baluska, a German botonist and Arthur
Reber, a clinical psychologist that may/not be of interest. Frantisek is
the Keynote Speaker at that Consciousness meeting I am also speaking at
fyi.....John

On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 7:54 AM Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>  Hi TOK,
>
> Cool thoughts, John. On this topic, here are some interesting articles
> about what plants might “feel” that my brother shared with me:
>
>
>
> *https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.peta.org_about-2Dpeta_faq_what-2Dabout-2Dplants_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=U03kSP2uYVWZ6m5RezM0t4bwvIrwBgT7ExgKR0DHTFQ&s=qDqAEERAVjbKT2-vhqfgTq91kAfgCMIbRSt6WFgU89c&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.peta.org_about-2Dpeta_faq_what-2Dabout-2Dplants_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=U03kSP2uYVWZ6m5RezM0t4bwvIrwBgT7ExgKR0DHTFQ&s=qDqAEERAVjbKT2-vhqfgTq91kAfgCMIbRSt6WFgU89c&e=>*
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__science.howstuffworks.com_life_botany_plants-2Dfeel-2Dpain.htm&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=U03kSP2uYVWZ6m5RezM0t4bwvIrwBgT7ExgKR0DHTFQ&s=pCMzOSR5BfSnsbxa_0208B4UXFI83Lw7T10zzLulB9o&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__science.howstuffworks.com_life_botany_plants-2Dfeel-2Dpain.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=wjF8cZoiFchamTuxBdDEmw&m=K3sr1bqZ0C1vQ-EBF9LTt5e4QFOjnSJzQB3uqW3f0Y0&s=Q6lxSBOL5wQSmBZSRxrY5dnR5cuiwWQSVo6HdEEkxiY&e=>
>
>
>
> For me, I completely agree that this stuff demonstrates plants exhibit
> aversion and withdrawal behaviors that are the roots of what we call
> “pain”. I would like to call them “proto-pain-behaviors”. However, I am a
> skeptic regarding “plant sentience,” although they clearly exhibit
> functional avoidance and aversion responses. When my son Jon badly broke
> his arm, the docs put him under and they tried to set it. Andee and I
> watched as his body writhed and he moaned and he pulled away. Was he “in
> pain” or did he “feel pain” as it happened? One of my “flashbulb” memories
> was when, twenty minutes later, he woke up and cried out “I am alive!”. I
> don’t think he felt pain during that time, at least in any we mean the term
> (although you might argue yes and he does not remember). Yet he exhibited
> behavior that was far more indicative of pain than the evidence cited for
> plant pain. The body (ours and plants) has lots of “functional awareness
> and response” mechanisms in it…but it is always tricky to sort out what
> observers see as patterns of behavior and what is (or is not) going on at
> the first person level of experience.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Gregg
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion <
> [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *JOHN TORDAY
> *Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2019 6:21 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Qualia
>
>
>
> Dear Brent and TOK, in putting together a brief talk on Consciousness, I
> had to reduce my cell biologic approach to the problem due to time
> constraints. So I decided to start with E=mc2 as the mathematical
> expression of the Singularity of the Cosmos (I assume we're all good on
> Einstein). Based on that 'logic', development of the embryo as cell-cell
> signaling is the conversion of 'mass' (growth factors) into 'energy' (the
> downstream interaction of the growth factor with its receptor (think 'lock
> and key'), triggering an intracellular cascade of high energy phosphates
> that ultimately affect growth and differentiation of the embryo,
> culminating in homeostatic physiology at birth. The aggregate of those
> cell-cell interactions is Consciousness, bearing in mind that the origin of
> the brain is the skin as a graphic. That would explain Qualia as the way in
> which experiences trigger consciousness, i.e. why seeing 'red' free
> associates with the physiology of the individual, bearing in mind that
> those homeostatic signaling cascades reference not only the physiology of
> the current individual, but their past experiences as a species as
> evolution too, so the Qualia go way back in the history of the organism. I
> hope that was helpful.
>
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the
> following link:
> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
> ############################
>
> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to:
> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the
> following link:
> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
>

############################

To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list:
write to: mailto:[log in to unmask]
or click the following link:
http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1