John and TOK, I want to be sure that you know how much I appreciate your thoughts. I have hungrily devoured all that you provided. Great stuff. I think that “constrained” is a good word for what we are discussing within a system like negentropy. Regarding your last note on the definition of determinism: "the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will”. This definition differs a bit from all I’ve sussed from various writers on the subject in philosophy, but it’s fairly reasonable. I think I misled by straying from my central point though, which is philosophical concepts of determinism that attempt to that justify human behavior as being determined. The cosmos are just a bit of collateral damage in also determined so that human determinism can make sense. And within my central point, at heart determinism is a flawed concept without proofs, beyond our ability to test it, and existing only in faith. This might be why its definitions are generally lacking. I do not mean to sound like I’m playing with semantics; I’m trying to avoid obfuscation. I should also mention that in philosophy there isn’t just determinism, but there is hard-determinism and soft-determinism. It’s a bit messy. Thank you again, Peter Peter Lloyd Jones [log in to unmask] 562-209-4080 Sent by determined causes that no amount of will is able to thwart. > On May 21, 2019, at 1:53 PM, JOHN TORDAY <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Peter and TOK, I see your point. I am not a philosopher, so please forgive my terminology. I am using the term 'determined' relative to 'Free Will' or 'Choice'. As I had indicated previously, I have formulated the First Principles of Physiology based on the reverse-engineering of evolution. Those principles must be adhered to, and for example I think that's why we return to the unicellular state over the course of the life cycle as the reference point, or 'point source' (actually, I don't think we leave it because it is necessary that we adhere to the ontologic origins of life). Perhaps comparison with Pauli Exclusion Principle would be helpful- there are 4 variables for calculating the spin on an electron; the first three are fixed, whereas the fourth one is probabilistic....I have expressed the idea that this is homologous with the First Principles of Physiology, negentropy and chemiosmosis being 'fixed', whereas homeostasis is probabilistic. In biology, the term 'constrained' is often used, so perhaps that's more like what I am referring to. I would appeciate your thoughts. Best, John > > On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 11:17 AM Peter Lloyd Jones <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: > John, and TOK, > Thank for for your exceptionally thoughtful and inspiring note. I’m hopeful that you can continue to afford my questions. I am out of my ilk here. > > Can you please tell me if you think we might be using the term “determinism” or “deterministic" differently from each other? Events can have causes, and some events have definitive causes, but does that ever mean that the outcome is determined as in predetermined to only have one possible outcome. > > For example, a system of negentropy provides a predetermined type of result, as in the ordering of a solar system and, as you mentioned, the evolution of organisms. But can the specific results--how many planets are formed, how many of them are gas giants, and so forth--not remain beyond prediction and be not predetermined? In other words, is there space between a "determined type” of result, such as an ordered solar system, and a specific result, such as planet Earth? > > Thank you again for your patience with me, > Peter > > > Peter Lloyd Jones > [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > 562-209-4080 > > Sent by determined causes that no amount of will is able to thwart. > > > >> On May 21, 2019, at 9:57 AM, JOHN TORDAY <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >> >> Schrodinger, What is Life? > > ############################ > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:mailto:[log in to unmask]> or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 <http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1>############################ > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:mailto:[log in to unmask]> or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 <http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1> ############################ To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1