Thanks to everyone for these thoughts.
Jason, your point about Jung’s concept of persona and shadow and the new kinds of alignments that the digital world affords us is a key part of the macro “digital
identity” problem and a good example of possible linkages between the emergence of digital and mental health problems. Many people, like Jean Twenge,
believe that the way social media influences how children and teens seek approval and manage impressions is crucial to understanding the recent spike and, as is suggested in your comment, there is good reason to suggest that the new landscape could alter
development in profound ways.
Moving to Suraj’s note, I encourage folks to check out his
blog and website. Also, let me note that I am in the process of re-orienting the “entry point” of the ToK/Unified framework in terms of three broad “Justification Systems/Language Games”
(JS-LG).
As this paper, Toward a Useful Mass Movement notes, the ToK has always been billed as a “Scientific Humanistic Philosophy”. I am now working out a more formal way to characterize exactly what is meant by that claim. Represented by the attached “S O IS Knowledge
and Wisdom Triangle” I am arguing that the three language systems are: objective-behavioral-exterior; subjective-phenomenological-interior; and InterSubjective normative group. The latter two are “humanistic” JS-LGs and the first is the “scientific”. (Note,
this conceptual distinction lines up with many perspectives, including Popper’s Three Worlds and Wilber’s Epistemological Quadrants). I will be arguing that they play by different rules and neither can be reduced to the others. Perhaps most notably in this
context, the Subjective-Phenomenological-Interior-Idiographic and InterSubjective Moral cannot be reduced to the scientific justification system.
In addition, I will be arguing strongly that “objective/exterior behaviorism” (AKA the JS-LG of science) does NOT translate into a reductive, (pre)-deterministic,
physical materialism. That is, although everything is matter and energy, not everything is
JUST matter and energy. Rather, as depicted by the ToK and, perhaps even more clearly, the
Periodic Table of Behavior, the best way to consider the universe “objectively” is to map it as a unfolding wave of behavior across different emergent levels and dimensions of complexity.
I am bringing this up because of a quote in Suraj’s note, which says, “The former is reserved about mind-body dualism a la Descartes, while the latter
rejects physicalism as a dominant mode for understanding human experience.”
The Scientific Humanistic Philosophy afforded by the ToK (and larger UTUA Framework) makes this debate nonsensical or completely outdated. Rather, we can now move past all of the old conflicts that pitted an “Enlightenment 1.0 version” of “matter in motion”
science against “human experience and human mattering” and achieve a coherent way of talking about all of this because the ToK provides a clear Meta-Language System that sort the scientific and humanistic justification in their rightful place and then offers
a conceptual system that allows coherent fluidity between them.
One of the great challenges of the 21st Century is the development of a coherent Scientific Humanistic meaning-making system. Indeed, directly connected
to the meaning making crisis, another major aspect of the Digital Identity Problem.
Best,
G
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]>
On Behalf Of Suraj Sood
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2019 8:36 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Digital Identity Problem
Relatively new to the list (along with Cory). Intriguing topic, here, and of course very timely.
For quotes, I interviewed one of my ethics debate coaches and social psychology/psychology of self professor. Some of you may recognize their names and/or work (the former is a philosopher). The former is reserved about mind-body dualism
a la Descartes, while the latter rejects physicalism as a dominant mode for understanding human experience.
I started a manuscript on affect, self, and subjectivity in modern A.I. (theory and applications), in 2015...but, haven't worked on it in a while.
Looking forward to further ToK discussion!
I apologize about the two empty messages.
It was a test to see who was in charge - me or the computer.
Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD
(Perseveret et Percipiunt)
503.631.8044
Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. (A Einstein)
Recall that one facet of the Digital Identity Problem is the digital-globalization meta-crisis, which refers to the enormous “game-changer” that the digital
landscape will bring us. I think one of the most dangerous aspect of the digital landscape is that it is so easy to have it create whatever reality folks want.
Here is an article by Jordan Peterson on “deep fakes” that gets at a disturbing aspect of this development.
From: tree
of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Waldemar
Schmidt
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 12:55 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Digital Identity Problem
Dear TOK discussion friends:
Many thanks to both Lonnie and Gregg for the comments about mental health and senior citizens!
Where the college student suicide problem is well documented that of the general and mental health of the general USA population doesn’t seem to be - or, at least, is not as widely available.
The Case and Deaton data are well worth the time spent reading - they provide objective and temporally-indexed data.
While some may differ with the concept of a digital identity crisis it seems pretty obvious that we are headed there in a big
hurry.
My experience practicing medicine has led me to the concern that we (in the USA) have been practicing a “way of life” which is inimical to mental and physical well-being of the general population.
Case and Deaton demonstrate how long this has been going on.
AND, we may objectively compare our “life-style: (if not culture &worldview) with that of other nations and peoples.
Is it too much to compare our “cultural outcomes crisis” with the “global warming crisis?”
The current paths of these two problems have already lead to grim outcomes - the final “crater” ain’t going to be very pretty!
Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD
(Perseveret et Percipiunt)
503.631.8044
Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value. (A Einstein)
Lonnie,
I see the mental health crisis as being quite pervasive and would consider this observation to fall mostly under the mental health crisis, although it clearly also connects to the meaning and digital-globalization crises. My primary question would be: Are
we seeing an aggregate shift in the mental health of the elderly? I have not seen data along those lines. When I look I see definite, strong aggregate data pointing to a rise in mental health problems in the youth. There is also good data that the general
and mental health of "lower class" whites has dropped (see here https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/casetextsp17bpea.pdf).
So, your point is well taken and your reflections are exactly what I hope the Digital Identity Problem formulation does, which is provide a macro-level frame to see the situation we are in and then start to line up many different patterns in the world to raise
our collective consciousness.
Thanks much for this reflection. I would be interested in looking over your dissertation if you feel like sharing it.
Best,
Gregg
-----Original Message-----
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Lonny Meinecke
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2019 1:03 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Digital Identity Problem
Thanks Gregg!
We might add, as well, a 5th aspect (or subcategory of item 4). There is an identity crisis and self-worth crisis among the senior community, as we find ourselves expected to keep up with a rate of cognitive growth (a selective, amensal growth so to speak)
that easily outstrips our evolutionary capacity (the rate of our commensal growth so to speak). The need to memorize so many passwords associated with fleeting products and industries, to intuitively navigate so many different "interfaces" (using so many different
browsers, each trying to avoid the other's copyrighted design while establishing a single standard), make sweeping gestures that magically summon hidden items behind glass screens… and so forth.
I am seeing a recurrent "repertoire" of new expressions of anguish and anxiety on the faces of elderly persons exhibiting worried cognitive saccades as they like living rasters try to find the attentional button of the day. You can watch them as they sweep
their heads like turrets from side to side and top to bottom - the growing fear of failure in their eyes - the collapse of self worth and admission of burgeoning cognitive "deficits" because they are expected to intuit what is not remotely instinctual. Curiously,
G Stanley Hall said much the same 100 years ago about the plight of children (Search, 1901, p. 51-52).
Nearly every day I hear admissions of insufficient self-worth by persons I once admired, and not because their abilities have diminished but because the expectations of a digital world make us all feel outdated and obsolete.
For our group, I think this offers a chance to challenge our assumptions in the broad sense, and see if we might foster reverence for what we biologically are (unique individuated creatures with the need to be valued by our fellows) more than what we mentally
lack (too young to be of any value, too old to be of any value, or just right to be of temporary value to society). What do you think? Some of this is in my dissertation's chapter 5 and based on my method (physical age bias: too young, too old, or just right
and mental age bias: not smart, not smart enough, or just right).
Thanks!
Lonny
Reference
Search, P. W. (1901). An ideal school, or looking forward. In W. T. Harris (Ed.), International Education Series (Vol. LII, pp. 1-357). New York, NY: D. Appleton and Company.
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