Dear Alexander Bard, If The Individual is a form of entrapment, what does non-entrapment look like? / Lene On 14-10-2019 18:37, Alexander Bard wrote: > Dear Alexander Elung > > I would strongly argue that the concept of The Individual is basically > a form of entrapment. > It is not tied to any freedom whatsoever but rather a form of > ownership by a structure larger than the tribe. > This is why the first individuals were slaves in river valley empires. > Opposed by a narcissistic pharaoh-tyrant. > Only later when slaves were too expensive or difficult to maintain, > did the concept of an Individual who chooses his submission appear. > Basically this is what modernity is. > In this sense, the Cartesian Individual is simply somebody who submits > to capital, nation and academia rather than a Christian who submits to > the aristocracy, the monarchy and most of all the church. > Later turned into a Kantian autist which is essentially the status of > Western Individualism ever since. It is by and large the Anglo-Saxon > state religion. > Hegel, Nietzsche, Freud and The American Pragmatists of course do > their best to break this up. But to the vast majority, the submission > to the welfare-state and consumer society order is too attractive to > oppose. > Especially as its current offer is slavery to the system as permanent > infantilization. > > Best intentions > Alexander Bard > > Den mån 14 okt. 2019 kl 14:33 skrev Alexander Elung > <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>: > > Dear Bard > > Yes I agree that “the individual” is most likely mainly primarily > a legalistic construction. But I would also argue that > jurisprudence is actually a very broad phenomenon in that respect, > which covers many aspects of existence and interaction. As Gregg > also argued, the individual is also an important construction in > personality psychology. > I’m not sure I see the direct collection with individualism to > slavery as I would argue the act of slavery is actually the act > removing a persons status as an individual – but the concept of > “rights” is directly depending on being able to distinguish the > individual from the rest of the tribe. > best > > Elung > > *Fra: *Alexander Bard <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > *Sendt: *Monday, October 14, 2019 14:00 > *Til: *[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > *Emne: *Re: Basic interactions. > > Dear Alexander Elung > > Agreed. In addition, I firmly believe that "The Individual" was > constructed for very straight forward legal purposes. > > So that you can push out, lock up, abjectify and in general > terrify a body with a mind by "individualizing it". For example is > slavery impossible without "individuation" first. > > Rites of passage are prior to that historically and instead > respond with a much more humane "submission to tribal interests". > Which comes with a responsibility toward archetype that > contemporary society is lacking. But then such societies do not > have slavery since slavery only arrives with large-scale farming > and imperialism. And following slavery, individuation and its > power opposite, the narcissism of the tyrant. > > Therefore I use the term "dividual" which then correctly can also > be applied on larger scales (clan, tribe, nation etc). It's just > how humans function. > > Where I have no desire to participate in the deceitful "game of > individuation". I have no interest in being or supporting any > slave owner. > > Cheerio > > Alexander Bard > > Den mån 14 okt. 2019 kl 13:12 skrev Alexander Elung > <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>: > > I completely agree that the individual is very dividable. When > we explore the psyche, we observe how the “ego” actually > controls very little compared to the strings being pulled by a > plethora of subconscious archetypes all with their own > agendas. I also think the entire tribe exists in the psyche as > symbolic representations, we then use to project our > “world-image” - so in a very real sense we are always divided > inviduals. > > However there is still something about the “individual” which > is non-dividable as a unit, as the “house/body” of the > psyche. There are so many uses for that word which cannot > just be replaced by dividual, that I think it would be a > mistake to let it go entirely. > best > > Elung > > *Fra:*tree of knowledge system discussion > <[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> på vegne af Alexander > Bard <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > *Sendt:* Monday, October 14, 2019 12:54:32 PM > *Til:* [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]><[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > *Emne:* Re: Basic interactions. > > We agree. > > My suggestion is therefore that our models also reflect our > convictions. As a counter-balance to prevalent public and > academic opinion. > > Why even use the term "individuate" and not just say > "dividuate" into "dividuals"? "Individual" means > "undividable", so why even use the term when it is blatantly > incorrect? Why not piss of the Cartesians instead? > > A great idea from Deleuze & Guattari that I have practised ove > the past 30 years, for example by developing schizoanalysis as > a highly successful analysis treatment. > > Why be only one when you can be many? Many people who share > the same house/body? > > Cheerio > > Alexander > > Den mån 14 okt. 2019 kl 12:47 skrev Henriques, Gregg - > henriqgx <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>: > > My view is that the prototype/ideal US/American identity > is excessively focused on the individual, one that makes > that makes decisions, independent of emotions and > relations. In fact, as attachment theory makes clear we > are born in relation. We then individuate from our > mothers, as Lene points out. > > > Best, > > G > > *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion > <[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> *On Behalf Of > *Lene Rachel Andersen - Nordic Bildung / Fremvirke > *Sent:* Monday, October 14, 2019 6:00 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > *Subject:* Re: Basic interactions. > > I think that anybody who is the parent of a toddler would > have plenty of data, particularly during visits to super > markets as they pass by the candy section (though that is > not an experience widely shared by indigenous > hunter-gatherers, of course...) > > / Lene > > On 14-10-2019 11:40, Alexander Bard wrote: > > When do modern Western toddlers separate their sense > of self from their mothers? > > Do you have any studies to refer to and how were they > conducted? > > Psychoanalysis has long put the self-sense-making at > the so called mirror stage, and as negation of mother. > "Something exists that is not mother". > > Whether that really occurs at any sort of mirror or is > just another name for the phallic intrusion is a hotly > debated topic. > > Obviously hard to solve since the subconscious > self-sense-making is way deeper and therefore much > earlier than any conscious self-sensing. > > Phallic intrusion called so since phallus represents > that which mother is not in the outside world. Nota bene. > > Best > > Alexander > > Den mån 14 okt. 2019 kl 11:36 skrev Lene Rachel > Andersen - Nordic Bildung / Fremvirke > <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>: > > Dear men of so many (shared) words, > > Is it only modern Western toddlers who separate > their sense of self from their mother (and others)? > > Best, > > Lene > > On 14-10-2019 11:21, Alexander Bard wrote: > > Dear Gregg > > Point taken. And America is also Pragmatism, > both Peirce and Whitehead are firmly rooted in > community and intersubjectivity (inherited > from Hegel). > > America would do really well with a huge > Pragmatist revival as opposed to today's > one-fight-against-everybody vulgar > Cartesianism. Isn't that what both you and Zak > Stein do already? > > My opposition is therefore against your ORDER > of things with "Individual" first. Why even > start with The Individual? Is that merely > because Psychologists's sales-pitches always > start as self-help manuals? Or why else? > > As Wittgenstein says, we are 100% social, > every word we use is borrowed from somebody > else. Priority must be given to "colaboration" > over "competition" because it is way more > correct for humans. > > Best > > Alexander > > Den sön 13 okt. 2019 kl 14:18 skrev Henriques, > Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>: > > Bard, > > There is much to be said for > understanding the human unit as the Dunbar > “socioont” and we in the US, with our > history of embracing hyper-individualistic > objectivist philosophies like that of Ayn > Rand need to see that we are defined by > intersubjective dialogue and the movement > of the herd in a way that Rand foolishly > denies. > > However, I think we can go too far in > our rejection of the individual. I prefer > the Bronfenbrenner socio-ecological lens > of concentric circles, from the individual > to family to the clan/tribe/community to > the nation to the globe. > > But the (in)dividual or subjective agent > is a fundamental unit. Personality > psychology lives in relation to social psych. > > > G > > *From:* tree of knowledge system > discussion <[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > *On Behalf Of *Alexander Bard > *Sent:* Sunday, October 13, 2019 8:09 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > *Subject:* Re: Basic interactions. > > Dear Waldemar > > Acually no. > > The "I" primacy is a typically European > modernist starting point and not at all > universal. > > Still the predominant starting point > among within American and European middle > class discourse. > > But again, not at all universal and not > even historically relevant outside of the > Cartesian-Kantian paradigm that still > dominates Western academia but which the > Internet Revolution is about to explode. > > You see, the rest of the world starts with > a tribal we. Usually around the Dubar > number of 157. Nothing is less than 157. > > So much for "higher perspectives". It > rather seems it takes an awful lot of > effort for western middle class people to > arrive where the rest of humanity starts from. > > Wilber is a Cartesian. I would much prefer > if we could leave that religious > conviction behind or at least not pretend > it is a universally valid norm. > > And what does behaviporism prove to us if > not that we behave as swarms and/or flocks > 99,9% of the time? No "individuals" at all > in action. But swarms and flocks that at > most contain dividuals. > > Tthe future belongs to social psychology > (like Peterson and Vervaeke) and not > individual psychology at all. We are all > already social and nothing but social. > > Big love > > Alexander > > Den lör 12 okt. 2019 kl 05:46 skrev > Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD > <[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>: > > Alexander (Bard): > > I am reading your works very carefully. > And I value the insights they invoke > within me. > Slowly, to be sure, I am trained in > medicine and science, not philosophy. > But there are some truths that apply > to Puerto Rican mothers of 5, as well > as grandfathers of 5, such as myself: > > There is an “I”. > There is a relationship of “I” > with “I” within “I.” > There is an I-Thou relationship. > There is an I-It relationship. > > And we all struggle to keep a balance > within those. > That balance requires looking at > things such as paradigms. > It won’t put food on the table. > But, it might help to do so with elan. > > Nonetheless, keep poking, brother! > > > Best regards, > > Waldemar > > > > Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD > (Perseveret et Percipiunt) > 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