Dear Alexander Elung Agreed. In addition, I firmly believe that "The Individual" was constructed for very straight forward legal purposes. So that you can push out, lock up, abjectify and in general terrify a body with a mind by "individualizing it". For example is slavery impossible without "individuation" first. Rites of passage are prior to that historically and instead respond with a much more humane "submission to tribal interests". Which comes with a responsibility toward archetype that contemporary society is lacking. But then such societies do not have slavery since slavery only arrives with large-scale farming and imperialism. And following slavery, individuation and its power opposite, the narcissism of the tyrant. Therefore I use the term "dividual" which then correctly can also be applied on larger scales (clan, tribe, nation etc). It's just how humans function. Where I have no desire to participate in the deceitful "game of individuation". I have no interest in being or supporting any slave owner. Cheerio Alexander Bard Den mån 14 okt. 2019 kl 13:12 skrev Alexander Elung < [log in to unmask]>: > I completely agree that the individual is very dividable. When we explore > the psyche, we observe how the “ego” actually controls very little compared > to the strings being pulled by a plethora of subconscious archetypes all > with their own agendas. I also think the entire tribe exists in the psyche > as symbolic representations, we then use to project our “world-image” - so > in a very real sense we are always divided inviduals. > > > > However there is still something about the “individual” which is > non-dividable as a unit, as the “house/body” of the psyche. There are so > many uses for that word which cannot just be replaced by dividual, that I > think it would be a mistake to let it go entirely. > best > > Elung > > > > > ------------------------------ > *Fra:* tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> > på vegne af Alexander Bard <[log in to unmask]> > *Sendt:* Monday, October 14, 2019 12:54:32 PM > *Til:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> > *Emne:* Re: Basic interactions. > > We agree. > My suggestion is therefore that our models also reflect our convictions. > As a counter-balance to prevalent public and academic opinion. > Why even use the term "individuate" and not just say "dividuate" into > "dividuals"? "Individual" means "undividable", so why even use the term > when it is blatantly incorrect? Why not piss of the Cartesians instead? > A great idea from Deleuze & Guattari that I have practised ove the past 30 > years, for example by developing schizoanalysis as a highly > successful analysis treatment. > Why be only one when you can be many? Many people who share the same > house/body? > Cheerio > Alexander > > Den mån 14 okt. 2019 kl 12:47 skrev Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx < > [log in to unmask]>: > >> My view is that the prototype/ideal US/American identity is excessively >> focused on the individual, one that makes that makes decisions, independent >> of emotions and relations. In fact, as attachment theory makes clear we are >> born in relation. We then individuate from our mothers, as Lene points out. >> >> >> Best, >> >> G >> >> >> >> *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion < >> [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *Lene Rachel Andersen - >> Nordic Bildung / Fremvirke >> *Sent:* Monday, October 14, 2019 6:00 AM >> *To:* [log in to unmask] >> *Subject:* Re: Basic interactions. >> >> >> >> I think that anybody who is the parent of a toddler would have plenty of >> data, particularly during visits to super markets as they pass by the candy >> section (though that is not an experience widely shared by indigenous >> hunter-gatherers, of course...) >> >> / Lene >> >> On 14-10-2019 11:40, Alexander Bard wrote: >> >> When do modern Western toddlers separate their sense of self from their >> mothers? >> >> Do you have any studies to refer to and how were they conducted? >> >> Psychoanalysis has long put the self-sense-making at the so called mirror >> stage, and as negation of mother. "Something exists that is not mother". >> >> Whether that really occurs at any sort of mirror or is just another name >> for the phallic intrusion is a hotly debated topic. >> >> Obviously hard to solve since the subconscious self-sense-making is way >> deeper and therefore much earlier than any conscious self-sensing. >> >> Phallic intrusion called so since phallus represents that which mother is >> not in the outside world. Nota bene. >> >> Best >> >> Alexander >> >> >> >> Den mån 14 okt. 2019 kl 11:36 skrev Lene Rachel Andersen - Nordic Bildung >> / Fremvirke <[log in to unmask]>: >> >> Dear men of so many (shared) words, >> >> Is it only modern Western toddlers who separate their sense of self from >> their mother (and others)? >> >> Best, >> >> Lene >> >> On 14-10-2019 11:21, Alexander Bard wrote: >> >> Dear Gregg >> >> >> >> Point taken. And America is also Pragmatism, both Peirce and Whitehead >> are firmly rooted in community and intersubjectivity (inherited from Hegel). >> >> America would do really well with a huge Pragmatist revival as opposed to >> today's one-fight-against-everybody vulgar Cartesianism. Isn't that what >> both you and Zak Stein do already? >> >> My opposition is therefore against your ORDER of things with "Individual" >> first. Why even start with The Individual? Is that merely because >> Psychologists's sales-pitches always start as self-help manuals? Or why >> else? >> >> As Wittgenstein says, we are 100% social, every word we use is borrowed >> from somebody else. Priority must be given to "colaboration" over >> "competition" because it is way more correct for humans. >> >> >> >> Best >> >> Alexander >> >> >> >> Den sön 13 okt. 2019 kl 14:18 skrev Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx < >> [log in to unmask]>: >> >> Bard, >> >> There is much to be said for understanding the human unit as the Dunbar >> “socioont” and we in the US, with our history of embracing >> hyper-individualistic objectivist philosophies like that of Ayn Rand need >> to see that we are defined by intersubjective dialogue and the movement of >> the herd in a way that Rand foolishly denies. >> >> >> >> However, I think we can go too far in our rejection of the individual. >> I prefer the Bronfenbrenner socio-ecological lens of concentric circles, >> from the individual to family to the clan/tribe/community to the nation to >> the globe. >> >> >> >> But the (in)dividual or subjective agent is a fundamental unit. >> Personality psychology lives in relation to social psych. >> >> >> G >> >> >> >> *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion < >> [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *Alexander Bard >> *Sent:* Sunday, October 13, 2019 8:09 AM >> *To:* [log in to unmask] >> *Subject:* Re: Basic interactions. >> >> >> >> Dear Waldemar >> >> >> >> Acually no. >> >> The "I" primacy is a typically European modernist starting point and not >> at all universal. >> >> Still the predominant starting point among within American and European >> middle class discourse. >> >> But again, not at all universal and not even historically relevant >> outside of the Cartesian-Kantian paradigm that still dominates Western >> academia but which the Internet Revolution is about to explode. >> >> You see, the rest of the world starts with a tribal we. Usually around >> the Dubar number of 157. Nothing is less than 157. >> >> So much for "higher perspectives". It rather seems it takes an awful lot >> of effort for western middle class people to arrive where the rest of >> humanity starts from. >> >> Wilber is a Cartesian. I would much prefer if we could leave that >> religious conviction behind or at least not pretend it is a universally >> valid norm. >> >> And what does behaviporism prove to us if not that we behave as swarms >> and/or flocks 99,9% of the time? No "individuals" at all in action. But >> swarms and flocks that at most contain dividuals. >> >> Tthe future belongs to social psychology (like Peterson and Vervaeke) and >> not individual psychology at all. We are all already social and nothing but >> social. >> >> >> >> Big love >> >> Alexander >> >> >> >> Den lör 12 okt. 2019 kl 05:46 skrev Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD < >> [log in to unmask]>: >> >> Alexander (Bard): >> >> I am reading your works very carefully. >> And I value the insights they invoke within me. >> Slowly, to be sure, I am trained in medicine and science, not philosophy. >> But there are some truths that apply to Puerto Rican mothers of 5, as >> well as grandfathers of 5, such as myself: >> >> There is an “I”. >> There is a relationship of “I” with “I” within “I.” >> There is an I-Thou relationship. >> There is an I-It relationship. >> >> And we all struggle to keep a balance within those. >> That balance requires looking at things such as paradigms. >> It won’t put food on the table. >> But, it might help to do so with elan. >> >> Nonetheless, keep poking, brother! >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Waldemar >> >> >> >> Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD >> (Perseveret et Percipiunt) >> Sent from my iPad >> >> ############################ >> >> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: >> write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] >> or click the following link: >> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flistserv.jmu.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FSUBED1-253DTOK-2DSOCIETY-2DL-2526A-253D1-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257Cf0d934ccb934409ac9ff08d7509523b4-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637066473803435135-26sdata-3DjF-252BZMh6eTxGTEbK7xX80Hh9xdCuAVZPv2OVlqlcFPHo-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=vv_eEOvFzA4i0tTHU10hyRlKGlcFVeG3YzvTN92GR2A&s=QS8khIFwqeTtxqcnK9QMaD7otWdZMX5cna0q-jfjwRk&e=> >> >> ############################ >> >> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >> following link: >> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flistserv.jmu.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FSUBED1-253DTOK-2DSOCIETY-2DL-2526A-253D1-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257Cf0d934ccb934409ac9ff08d7509523b4-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637066473803445139-26sdata-3DPs-252FSybdlArczHjEKpwtBJNBuklFeMifT7oZYYwUGYJI-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=vv_eEOvFzA4i0tTHU10hyRlKGlcFVeG3YzvTN92GR2A&s=I88ZOf9Q8mBeePKT0QeMz1ggU-Cwf_qjozWM7p26ZE0&e=> >> >> ############################ >> >> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >> following link: >> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flistserv.jmu.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FSUBED1-253DTOK-2DSOCIETY-2DL-2526A-253D1-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257Cf0d934ccb934409ac9ff08d7509523b4-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637066473803445139-26sdata-3DPs-252FSybdlArczHjEKpwtBJNBuklFeMifT7oZYYwUGYJI-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=vv_eEOvFzA4i0tTHU10hyRlKGlcFVeG3YzvTN92GR2A&s=I88ZOf9Q8mBeePKT0QeMz1ggU-Cwf_qjozWM7p26ZE0&e=> >> >> ############################ >> >> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >> following link: >> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flistserv.jmu.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FSUBED1-253DTOK-2DSOCIETY-2DL-2526A-253D1-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257Cf0d934ccb934409ac9ff08d7509523b4-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637066473803455144-26sdata-3DbRNSuJZXOoyRm05e7IMOmfcY9ipNnOyqSyczTdeuCy4-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=vv_eEOvFzA4i0tTHU10hyRlKGlcFVeG3YzvTN92GR2A&s=lp6hCScr-kAJm3VtJVfWNRsMrQUYj9PzJW1tKo28Vmk&e=> >> >> ############################ >> >> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >> following link: >> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flistserv.jmu.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FSUBED1-253DTOK-2DSOCIETY-2DL-2526A-253D1-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257Cf0d934ccb934409ac9ff08d7509523b4-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637066473803465155-26sdata-3DEohoyoFucmrmGKCDh-252F7HjmvBfjWbKusoIv-252FFfPf0rbI-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=vv_eEOvFzA4i0tTHU10hyRlKGlcFVeG3YzvTN92GR2A&s=vl_MrorsHDAkz0MnidqWPXEUu1SfibXvTnHHCpNumfU&e=> >> >> ############################ >> >> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >> following link: >> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flistserv.jmu.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FSUBED1-253DTOK-2DSOCIETY-2DL-2526A-253D1-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257Cf0d934ccb934409ac9ff08d7509523b4-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637066473803475160-26sdata-3DUrRdUuGyMwzjDy9-252FIfigzV6-252BquK3-252FEdjBHXmp52n06E-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=vv_eEOvFzA4i0tTHU10hyRlKGlcFVeG3YzvTN92GR2A&s=NVCP3sU1J5AxLeymswPPlYyb5FKnYQAe-iIyzVtWCJA&e=> >> >> ############################ >> >> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >> following link: >> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flistserv.jmu.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FSUBED1-253DTOK-2DSOCIETY-2DL-2526A-253D1-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257Cf0d934ccb934409ac9ff08d7509523b4-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637066473803485170-26sdata-3DUONSE0xPTklXPPOV6a-252FG2JIpGRmvtEj0Am-252F0Q-252B-252BfbXI-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=vv_eEOvFzA4i0tTHU10hyRlKGlcFVeG3YzvTN92GR2A&s=2QCDMUZPmxmp3wx6efWKp9o8dh5RPT0p3zg_YpfjhwA&e=> >> ############################ >> >> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >> following link: >> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flistserv.jmu.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FSUBED1-253DTOK-2DSOCIETY-2DL-2526A-253D1-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257Cf0d934ccb934409ac9ff08d7509523b4-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637066473803495181-26sdata-3Don4fYlcO0SWeCOkRWjXQNiJaBSCHRv9fEYVl83TyJGU-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=vv_eEOvFzA4i0tTHU10hyRlKGlcFVeG3YzvTN92GR2A&s=XISyjLLdFaygIB20PbcsbnvtGUeL7NeNbrHgqrl0zsY&e=> >> > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flistserv.jmu.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FSUBED1-253DTOK-2DSOCIETY-2DL-2526A-253D1-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257Cf0d934ccb934409ac9ff08d7509523b4-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637066473803505186-26sdata-3D8oCffHBs2MH-252F4L0Zu-252F8OrRo5QEdzNlUpFYX9ZPKkENA-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=vv_eEOvFzA4i0tTHU10hyRlKGlcFVeG3YzvTN92GR2A&s=4D6zh878fNamhGlCgiu_wgsmKQ9W-qm0DRWJv25dNf8&e=> > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > ############################ To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1