When do modern Western toddlers separate their sense of self from their mothers? Do you have any studies to refer to and how were they conducted? Psychoanalysis has long put the self-sense-making at the so called mirror stage, and as negation of mother. "Something exists that is not mother". Whether that really occurs at any sort of mirror or is just another name for the phallic intrusion is a hotly debated topic. Obviously hard to solve since the subconscious self-sense-making is way deeper and therefore much earlier than any conscious self-sensing. Phallic intrusion called so since phallus represents that which mother is not in the outside world. Nota bene. Best Alexander Den mån 14 okt. 2019 kl 11:36 skrev Lene Rachel Andersen - Nordic Bildung / Fremvirke <[log in to unmask]>: > Dear men of so many (shared) words, > > Is it only modern Western toddlers who separate their sense of self from > their mother (and others)? > > Best, > > Lene > On 14-10-2019 11:21, Alexander Bard wrote: > > Dear Gregg > > Point taken. And America is also Pragmatism, both Peirce and Whitehead are > firmly rooted in community and intersubjectivity (inherited from Hegel). > America would do really well with a huge Pragmatist revival as opposed to > today's one-fight-against-everybody vulgar Cartesianism. Isn't that what > both you and Zak Stein do already? > My opposition is therefore against your ORDER of things with "Individual" > first. Why even start with The Individual? Is that merely because > Psychologists's sales-pitches always start as self-help manuals? Or why > else? > As Wittgenstein says, we are 100% social, every word we use is borrowed > from somebody else. Priority must be given to "colaboration" over > "competition" because it is way more correct for humans. > > Best > Alexander > > Den sön 13 okt. 2019 kl 14:18 skrev Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx < > [log in to unmask]>: > >> Bard, >> >> There is much to be said for understanding the human unit as the Dunbar >> “socioont” and we in the US, with our history of embracing >> hyper-individualistic objectivist philosophies like that of Ayn Rand need >> to see that we are defined by intersubjective dialogue and the movement of >> the herd in a way that Rand foolishly denies. >> >> >> >> However, I think we can go too far in our rejection of the individual. >> I prefer the Bronfenbrenner socio-ecological lens of concentric circles, >> from the individual to family to the clan/tribe/community to the nation to >> the globe. >> >> >> >> But the (in)dividual or subjective agent is a fundamental unit. >> Personality psychology lives in relation to social psych. >> >> >> G >> >> >> >> *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion < >> [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *Alexander Bard >> *Sent:* Sunday, October 13, 2019 8:09 AM >> *To:* [log in to unmask] >> *Subject:* Re: Basic interactions. >> >> >> >> Dear Waldemar >> >> >> >> Acually no. >> >> The "I" primacy is a typically European modernist starting point and not >> at all universal. >> >> Still the predominant starting point among within American and European >> middle class discourse. >> >> But again, not at all universal and not even historically relevant >> outside of the Cartesian-Kantian paradigm that still dominates Western >> academia but which the Internet Revolution is about to explode. >> >> You see, the rest of the world starts with a tribal we. Usually around >> the Dubar number of 157. Nothing is less than 157. >> >> So much for "higher perspectives". It rather seems it takes an awful lot >> of effort for western middle class people to arrive where the rest of >> humanity starts from. >> >> Wilber is a Cartesian. I would much prefer if we could leave that >> religious conviction behind or at least not pretend it is a universally >> valid norm. >> >> And what does behaviporism prove to us if not that we behave as swarms >> and/or flocks 99,9% of the time? No "individuals" at all in action. But >> swarms and flocks that at most contain dividuals. >> >> Tthe future belongs to social psychology (like Peterson and Vervaeke) and >> not individual psychology at all. We are all already social and nothing but >> social. >> >> >> >> Big love >> >> Alexander >> >> >> >> Den lör 12 okt. 2019 kl 05:46 skrev Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD < >> [log in to unmask]>: >> >> Alexander (Bard): >> >> I am reading your works very carefully. >> And I value the insights they invoke within me. >> Slowly, to be sure, I am trained in medicine and science, not philosophy. >> But there are some truths that apply to Puerto Rican mothers of 5, as >> well as grandfathers of 5, such as myself: >> >> There is an “I”. >> There is a relationship of “I” with “I” within “I.” >> There is an I-Thou relationship. >> There is an I-It relationship. >> >> And we all struggle to keep a balance within those. >> That balance requires looking at things such as paradigms. >> It won’t put food on the table. >> But, it might help to do so with elan. >> >> Nonetheless, keep poking, brother! >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Waldemar >> >> >> >> Waldemar A Schmidt, PhD, MD >> (Perseveret et Percipiunt) >> Sent from my iPad >> >> ############################ >> >> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: >> write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] >> or click the following link: >> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >> >> ############################ >> >> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >> following link: >> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >> ############################ >> >> To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: >> mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the >> following link: >> http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 >> > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > ############################ To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1