On Jan 8, 2020, at 9:38 AM, Chance McDermott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
I am grateful for Gregg's note and compilation of articles and for the brilliant and collaborative responses here. In my daily life I experience the effects of confused clamoring for answers and misleading responses those demands. I feel fortunate to have access to the perspectives of a group who are "meta-aware" of humanness, and am further encouraged by the high levels of agreement and overlap on this topic.Gregg's insights about relational value metering and Joe's insights about social distance seem worthy of addition to this discussion. To my wit, individuals with suicidal ideation are often aware of their separation from their assigned social herd. The social mask, or personality structure, is still operable, but the power steering is gone and social calculations must be done "by hand," (rote working memory simulation). This is exhausting. The inner experience of the individual is one of intensifying pain and pessimism. Interactions that are successful are due to proper performance of a character perceived to be appropriate, but the core experience of successful social interaction is relief from the avoidance of detection and a bad outcome rather than an approach for positive outcomes. Diminishingly objectively valued (due to inefficiency and lower productivity) and rapidly unknown to others, energy drains from the psychic structure while at the same time the complexity of calculating and performing an acceptable social character (false self) increase. The felt distance between self and other grows vast. Without the energy and mental resources to influence environmental conditions, and perhaps an increased dependency on others, some people with this kind of depression become desperate for relief in the form of an escape. Should the cycle of increasing pain, isolation, and private social distancing continue, suicide becomes a rational choice for many.In UT language, our learned behavioral investment contingencies are destroyed or made obsolete by rapid environmental changes, our experiential systems become flooded with pain and aversive signals, we experience rapid plummets in our perceived relational value due to social media (we are not so special, useful, or valued as we had been taught or hoped), and the private narrator within us becomes an incessant and haunting chatter-box as it tries to create a justifiable narrative about these experiences that would be presentable to an audience that itself is unclear, disoriented, and confused.I do hope that the developmental perspectives presented here gather more traction in policy.Best,-Chance########################################################Thanks, Darcia.
I just want to say here on the list that I very much enjoyed the article you co-authored on developmental science and the distinction between the (developmental systems) process relational metatheoretical view and the “Cartesian Split Mechanistic View”. It is attached and I strong recommend it for anyone doing big picture theory work in psychology.
Best,Gregg
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Darcia Narvaez
Sent: Tuesday, January 7, 2020 2:48 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Why are teens killing themselves at alarming rates
Just to jump here with root causes. The early months and years set up all neurobiological systems and our evolved basic needs expect our species normal nest. The USA is probably the worst country in the world for providing the evolved nest, setting up anxiety and depression (at epidemic levels for all ages) for life because, for example, the underdevelopment of receptors and function of serotonin, endogenous opioids, oxytocin---the things that make us feel good. See more here about the evolved nest from our lab in this open access article:
Tarsha, M., & Narvaez, D. (2019). The Evolved Nest: A partnership system that fosters child wellbeing. International Journal of Partnership Studies, 6(3). Open access: doi.org/10.24926/ijps.v6i3.2244
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Darcia Narvaez (DAR-sha narv-EYES)
Professor of Psychology, Psychology Department,
362 Corbett, University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame IN 46556 USA[log in to unmask], 574-631-7835
My University Website
The Evolved Nest (Evolved Developmental Niche) (academic papers)
EvolvedNest.Org (podcasts, info, and monthly newsletter)
Also see DarciaNarvaez.com
Blog at Psychology Today: Moral LandscapesInterviews and PodcastsSustainable Wisdom Conference website (videos of speakers, more)BOOKS:
Indigenous Sustainable Wisdom: First Nation Know-How for Global Flourishing (Peter Lang)
Basic Needs, Wellbeing and Morality: Fulfilling Human Potential (Palgrave-Macmillan)
Embodied Morality: Protectionism, Engagement and Imagination (Palgrave-Macmillan)
Neurobiology and the Development of Human Morality: Evolution, Culture and Wisdom (winner of the 2017 Expanded Reason Award and the 2015 APA William James Book Award)
Evolution, Early Experience and Human Development (OUP)
Ancestral Landscapes in Human Evolution (OUP)
Young Child Flourishing: Evolution, Family & Society (OUP)amazon.com/author/darcianarvaezKindred WorldI acknowledge my presence at the University of Notre Dame on the traditional homeland of the Pokégnek Bodéwadmik / Pokagon Potawatomi, who have been using this land for education for thousands of years, and continue to do so.
On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 11:40 AM Alexander Bard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Dear Friends
I believe the root cause is the ideology we had before social media arrived and where social media then has put gasoline on the fire so to speak.
And that is the utter loneliness of radical individualism, a society where everybody is fighting everybody else, for attention and for social reward, in a constant battle of all against all.
Human beings are deeply tribal and social creatures. Unless we understand that quickly and start working accordingly this issue is only going to get worse and worse.
Youth suicide rates in Europe and North America are not only at record highs, they are this high despite all the successes of modern psychiatry (which caused the lowering rates between 1970-1999).
So the crisis is much deeper and more profund than we have been willing to acknowledge. And the roots are to be found in The Enlightenment in the 1600s rather than just in contemporary media usages.
That kids are taught to compare themselves against each other (and their unattainable idols) rather than collaborate is what is existentially shocking and abnormal.
Best intentions
Alexander Bard
Den tis 7 jan. 2020 kl 17:29 skrev Joseph Michalski <[log in to unmask]>:
Dear Chris:
I think we can all appreciate your perspective, both in terms of the work that you do and in terms of your more personal context. I would expect nothing but thoughtful, supportive comments from a list such as this, given the nature of who's involved. Few of us are truly experts on the subject, but I suspect that many have some familiarity with the research and some have published in the area. Just a brief couple of points based on my own background and knowledge of the subject matter.
First, I always try to get a handle on the most reliable data. Suicide rates have been climbing steadily upward in the U.S. for the past two decades, for example, but perhaps not quite as dramatically as the media have portrayed. Back in 1950, the death rate for suicide in the United States stood at 21.2/100,000 for males and 5.5/100,000 among females.By the year 2000, the figures had dropped to relative "lows" of 17.7 and 4.1 for males & females. But there has been a steady climb over the past two decades, such that in 2017, there were 22.4 male and 6.1 female deaths by suicide per 100,000 resident population. Hence, we are confident that the problem has been increasing over the last two decades.
The key question, of course, is "why"? That's where people like Gregg and perhaps others on the list can offer some greater insights. For example, you ask about whether social media adds to feelings of depression and anxiety that could lead to self-harm and even suicidal thoughts. The short answer would be, "yes" - but that has to be placed in the broader context of social and cultural changes that have occurred, and not just purely a matter of technology or the introduction of the iphone. But technology and e-communications are profoundly changing the way in which we interact and connect, as many on this list can attest and comment on further. My concern is that we have only the most limited and imperfect research to try to demonstrate the "causal" linkages between social media and these influences that you have mentioned. We need far more robust research and longitudinal studies, in my view, to tease out the mechanisms that produce higher (or lower) rates of depression and anxiety. These are not "new" phenomena, to be sure, but the degree to which social media may have an adverse impact has not been studied adequately in my opinion - and I've been looking for good research on the subject for the past few years. I've shared a few articles with our academic counselors on the depression among students in universities, but, again, the studies only show broad corollary effects of social media on depression - but the degree of that impact has not been separated from the host of other social, contextual factors such as living arrangements, degree of connectivity or community participation (e.g., we know that getting students out of their dorm rooms and involved in activities has a positive impact in reducing depression), or family situation and stressors, etc. And I'm not even getting into the psycho-biological foundations! Much more to be said, by many on this list and others. Yours kindly, -Joe
Dr. Joseph H. Michalski
King’s University College at Western University
266 Epworth Avenue, DL-201
London, Ontario, Canada N6A 2M3
Tel: (519) 433-3491
Email: [log in to unmask]
______________________
eiπ + 1 = 0
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Christopher Hadnagy <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 7, 2020 10:27 AM
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Why are teens killing themselves at alarming rates
I rarely comment in this thread, as I feel wholly unqualified to sit at the table with the minds that Gregg has collected here. But this topic is one I often come in contact with during my work running the ILF (www.innocentlivesfoundation.org)
I have questions, that I want to pose but I feel they are questions that can start a fiery debate and I do not want to be a the receiving end of scathing criticism as I realize my knowledge on these topics is probably not up to par with the rest of you, so please take these are real questions I am asking as a parent, as a person who works with saving abused kids and as a 40 something that grew up in a world that went from low tech to all tech and from hard lines to almost invisible lines.
The topic of growing teen suicide is troubling to me, my daughter who is 15 has an ever increasing number of friends who cut, burn, self harm and talk about ending it all. We have lost over 5 friends in the last 1.5 years to suicide, not counting the ones I know I would not consider close. Yes it seems easy to want to medicate it away, but I sit back and I observe my daughter and her interactions with friends both IRL (real life) and online. And here are my questions.
Do you think that the usage of social media adds to feelings of depression and anxiety that could lead to self-harm and even suicidal thoughts? I have noticed with my daughter the constant need to compare herself to the “life” she sees others having online.
Do you think the push to allow even very young children to choose a gender or be fluid with their identities is creating a rift in peacefulness and mindfulness? I find it so anxiety inducing to speak publicly, I do this a lot as part of my job. But something as simple as “Ladies and Gentlemen” will get met with harsh, SJW angst that makes me out to be a racist because I used that phrase.
I read an article that spoke about, even though the “metoo” movement was so positive for helping women find a voice for bad treatment, most young men who are not predators are so afraid of being accused they avoid sexual contact – do you think this lack of human contact and expression can lead to the increase in these behaviors?
(re: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-fertility-birth-rate-decline-jodi-kantor/)
Anyhow, I will stop here, I am not one for long emails, I do apologize that my first time being involved in this discussion is at such controversial topics.
I look forward to your comments and thoughts.
Chris
From: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of "Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx" <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: tree of knowledge system discussion <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, January 7, 2020 at 9:54 AM
To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Why are teens killing themselves at alarming rates
Hi TOK List,
As you know, I have been tracking the mental health crisis in our youth. Here is a brief op-ed in the times reviewing some of the disconcerting data on depression and suicide rates among teens.
It is by a psychiatrist, and, as is too often the case in psychiatry, depression is characterized in the piece as a disease like entity. Indeed, the author seems to believe that if we would only prescribe more meds, teen mental health would be better. I strongly disagree.
I also believe the piece is a good reminder why we need clear and straightforward discussions on what depression IS. FYI, I was invited to do an NPR academic minute on this topic, which will becoming out in march. Here are the takes if you want to get ahead of the release 😊.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dms79kvhllm5mmt/AAAVQPmCkLBwLok1gKghcFipa?dl=0
Here is the basic question I would ask regarding these alarming rates: Are we raising our children in an anti-fragile way that fosters in them the capacity to grow into adults who can love, play, and work with deep purpose?
Here is what the kindergarten teachers are saying about the job we are doing in the schools:
Best,
Gregg
############################
To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
All information transmitted hereby is intended only for the use of the addressee(s) named above and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution of confidential and privileged information is prohibited. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient(s) or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you must not read this transmission and that disclosure, copying, printing, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender by return e-mail and delete the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you. ############################
To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
############################
To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
############################
To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
############################
To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1
To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1