Somebody wrote an interesting piece on the topic here: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nytimes.com_2020_02_13_opinion_scandinavia-2Deducation.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=PtxgKZg5zgkiQN_IZK_Am9XV3nRlwtVKVaxBu5P9PhM&s=DISDYi_lheeY2FzqGcW9N3adzPmOs0FqlVaAy6uSQfU&e= ;-) / Lene On 14-02-2020 02:53, Alexander Elung wrote: > > I could literally talk about this for ten hours. If you really want > to understand what value is, then start reading Mises. But, let me > give you a brief explanation since you asked ; Value is always > subjective, meaning that there is no such thing as fixed value or > objective value. So what determines value is the opinion of whoever > is evaluating it. I can find my collection of baby-teeth invaluable, > however to another person they can be worthless. > Air has no value if you have plenty of it, however if air is limited > the value can become unlimited. However it you are hanging yourself, > air wouldn’t be worth anything even if you didn’t have any. So value > is always subjective, however subjectivity isn’t relativativistic, > it’s relative to intention. But in general, generating value means > that you are doing something other people find valuable. > > Best > > Elung > > > *Fra: *Chance McDermott <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > *Sendt: *14. februar 2020 02:06 > *Til: *[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > *Emne: *Re: Interesting critique of life in US > > Alexander E, > > What determines what is valuable? > > Best, > > -Chance > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 6:26 PM Alexander Elung > <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: > > I don’t actually think success has anything to do with luck. > Unsuccessful people who win the lottery very often ends up broke > again within very short time frames. The amount of wealth you > accumulate can be dependent on luck . You can be born rich ( > luck) you can win the lottery ( luck) - however wealth isn’t > success. Success is the act of generating value. Which means > that you have to bring value to other people, which is rarely > something you can accomplish by luck. > > Let’s take an extreme example ; Paris Hiltons success came from > her being extremely proficient at marketing herself – she was rich > before that, but being successful required her to make something > which other people wanted to consume. That didn’t have anything > to do with luck. > > You can be lucky and be born rich. You can be lucky and win the > lottery – but to be successful, you have to be the one who is > generating the value. > > Best > > Elung > > *Fra: *Alexander Bard <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > *Sendt: *14. februar 2020 01:07 > *Til: *[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > *Emne: *Re: Interesting critique of life in US > > Touché, my dear Namesake, that was exactly my point. > > Then add the humility of chance/fate. If we are ever successful > it helps both us and our surroundings to understand that both hard > work, deep studies and a big dose of luck got us where we are at. > > Not that it makes society immune against envy and ressentiment, > the ultimate social poisons. But it gives us a proper ethical > position from which to fight those passive-aggressive delusions. > > We hav merely just begun to fight and overcome the horrors of mass > narcissism. > > Big love > > Alexander Bard > > Den fre 14 feb. 2020 kl 01:00 skrev Alexander Elung > <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>: > > ” And success is defined as status, wealth, attractiveness, > capacity and means to act as one pleases, etc. This is not a > fulfilling conception of personhood. The goal, it seems to me, > is to seek to change minds and societal structures that > reflects our conceptions of what it means to be good persons, > what it means to have good relationships, and what it means to > cultivate a society that promotes human flourishing rather > than merely human self-interest. This, I think, is what will > make us feel whole, rather than empty. ” > > The problem with a statement such as this, is that you don’t > seem to understand what success actually is to begin with. > To succeed at something, you have to create value. To create > value, people have to value what you are doing. Being a good > person can make you extremely successful, if you are actually > providing other people value. Helping other people can be > extremely profitable if you are good at it – like inventing > something which will make peoples lives easier. > > The idea that you think changing societal structures, will > change the definition of success, leads me to believe that you > don’t understand either how success or societal structures work. > > “The “feel less” in the quote, IMO, refers to the emptiness > that shallow achievement and consumerism breeds, in contrast > to a deeper grounding in being and an awareness of the virtues > that guide our sense of personhood. I certainly think that was > the point Mike was making.” > > > The problem has nothing to do with consumerism. Achieving > something is hard and requires work. What makes a person > successful is the creation of something, which other people > values. You can’t change minds and societal structures and > then expect everybody to be successful and feel achievement – > however you can instill the understanding in people, that they > are responsible for their own feeling of meaning and that it’s > something they have to work for. > > I suspect this is also what Bard meant with the John Wayne > allegory. > > best > > Elung > > *Fra: *Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > *Sendt: *14. februar 2020 00:49 > *Til: *[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > *Emne: *Re: Interesting critique of life in US > > Alexander, > > You do have a way of putting things 😊. I think your > (somewhat justified) frustration with the modern state of > America and its problem with infantile narcissism may cause > you to read the quotation differently than I did. The “feel > less” in the quote, IMO, refers to the emptiness that shallow > achievement and consumerism breeds, in contrast to a deeper > grounding in being and an awareness of the virtues that guide > our sense of personhood. I certainly think that was the point > Mike was making. > > Peace, > > G > > *From:*tree of knowledge system discussion > <[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> *On Behalf Of > *Alexander Bard > *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2020 6:31 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > *Subject:* Re: Interesting critique of life in US > > Dear Mike > > As aa European I'm actually tired of Americans who feel too > much and rely on their feelings for absolutely everything. We > get stuck in Californian hippie talk if I'm brutally honest. > > I like John Wayne who as an ethical figure does what is right > without feeling a thing. Philosophers like Zizek and Badiou > probably even jerk off at his feet. > > So the problem is American Inidividualism going to into a > supernova phase as American hypernarcissism. As if John Wayne > only defends himself and not his community. > > We are all sick and tired of that and we know that the proper > response is concepts like "congregation" and "community", the > nicest damn words in American English. > > But am I the only one here sensing that "emotions" communicate > a brat stuck at his mother's tit rather than a properly adult > American? > > Just asking. > > Best intentions > > Alexander Bard > > Den tors 13 feb. 2020 kl 20:12 skrev Michael Mascolo > <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>: > > HI All: > > I found this article to be quite illuminative of our > current condition. I particularly found this quote to be > very valuable: > > As the American physician and psychotherapist > Alexander Lowen acknowledged: “The modern individual > is committed to being successful, not to being a > person. He belongs rightly to the ‘action generation’ > whose motto is ‘do more but feel less.” > > I think that this really gets at the core of the issue — > even more than the idea that we are acquisitive commodity > seekers. The idea that contemporary capitalist society is > organized to foster a sense of acquisitiveness has always > struck me as appropriate, but secondary to something else. > This is the something else that I think is more important. > > The most powerful of all human motives, I think, are > identity motives. We are motivated to uphold images of > who we want to be and, morally, who we believe we should > be. In the current version of our capitalist culture, the > images of “who we want to be” are defined by “success”. > And success is defined as status, wealth, attractiveness, > capacity and means to act as one pleases, etc. This is not > a fulfilling conception of personhood. The goal, it seems > to me, is to seek to change minds and societal structures > that reflects our conceptions of what it means to be good > persons, what it means to have good relationships, and > what it means to cultivate a society that promotes human > flourishing rather than merely human self-interest. This, > I think, is what will make us feel whole, rather than empty. > > My Very Best, > > Mike > > *Michael F. Mascolo, Ph.D.* > > Academic Director, Compass Program > > Professor, Department of Psychology > Merrimack College, North Andover, MA 01845 > 978.837.3503 (office) > 978.979.8745 (cell) > > *Blogs: **Values Matter* > <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Furldefense.proofpoint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttps-2D3A-5F-5Fwww.psychologytoday.com-5Fus-5Fblog-5Fvalues-2D2Dmatter-2526d-253DDwMFaQ-2526c-253DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn-5F5nBEmmeq0-2526r-253DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-2DUOpybo6Cfxxz-2DjIYBgjO2gOz4-2DA-2526m-253DvuG1Ian-2Dl09djamvwiHIvZ4jraX57BK5vTxdtQlIx5Q-2526s-253DxCZfkxTwo5r1C2dxhhhYYJ19FxqoOtzWxuObPbAqTFQ-2526e-253D-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C28f8a5ea23374658d2a808d7b0df4f8c-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637172345462365545-26sdata-3DFhPtQnx-252B-252B4ut-252B9C-252FG1a0onBc64SfkzDm5eNgnIHrvfo-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMGaQ%26c%3DeLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0%26r%3DHPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A%26m%3DrZLfZBIaeeAwdEHI_ZQndfUPY5NW_IPNgKvkH74n6p4%26s%3DIUwa8GSwSNmb0udxc0cZ_RHtzRQA2Qh6Aozj7fSpbMc%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7C%7C15dc760d390c4d32db7c08d7b0ea18ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637172391788161636&sdata=LCCif5wt1%2FmmFJd2f2GwZX%2BBBVR6QpKCVFcrZkCnWYM%3D&reserved=0> > > *Journal: **/Pedagogy and the Human Sciences/* > 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> > *Coaching and Author Website: **www.michaelmascolo.com* > 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> > *Academia Home Page: > **https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__merrimack.academia.edu_MichaelMascolo-2A&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=PtxgKZg5zgkiQN_IZK_Am9XV3nRlwtVKVaxBu5P9PhM&s=6KvYeaMypJlxjqqHpT8CLdYIZAwnV2K77Z0uVYtvDI4&e= > 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> > > "/Things move, persons act./" -- Kenneth Burke > "/If it's not worth doing, it's not worth doing well/." -- > Donald Hebb > > On Feb 13, 2020, at 12:55 PM, Chance McDermott > <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > wrote: > > Hi all, > > This article seems to well-describe the frustrated > situation that many experience. It is an absurd and > awkward situation. > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 7:57 AM nysa71 > <[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > wrote: > > Gregg, > > The article is simply neoliberalism / late stage > capitalism in a nutshell. We need to stop trying > to adapt to such a system, and start shifting to a > system that adapts to us. The current Democratic > primary is a perfect reflection of those two > competing sentiments, with most candidates (if not > all but one of those candidates), a reflection (to > varying degrees) of the former sentiment. That > simply will not --- and cannot --- do. It's why > I'm a Bernie guy, and couldn't care less about the > rest of them. > > ~ Jason > > On Thursday, February 13, 2020, 07:04:07 AM EST, > Henriques, Gregg - henriqgx <[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: > > Hi TOK List, > > Someone recently shared this article with me. > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__medium.com_-40erikrittenberry_the-2Damerican-2Dlife-2Dis-2Dkilling-2Dyou-2D9e7e68135f4a&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=PtxgKZg5zgkiQN_IZK_Am9XV3nRlwtVKVaxBu5P9PhM&s=MG0jjkWASlgRof68rDPg0rm8tI_ap5fTzNLyAHCwTQQ&e= > 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> > Would love to get reactions if folks have them. > > Best, > > Gregg > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write > to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] > <mailto:mailto:[log in to unmask]>or > click the following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > 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