Really enjoyed these reflections, Joe. Thanks for sharing. On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 12:01 PM Joseph Michalski <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Hi folks. I'm not sure if I'm the only sociologist within the ToK Society > listserv, but I'll weigh in with two issues: 1) distal vs. proximal causes; > and 2) "explaining" vs. "excusing" behavior. > > On the first issue, I'm following up on Lene's distinction between > childhood and adult issues. A major limitation in our sociological research > revolves around the problem of studying behavior in "real time" and "over > time." We rarely conduct the types of studies that would allow us to model > human behavior over time and evaluate the "mechanisms" that produce > different behavioral outcomes, whether at the individual or group level. We > certainly do very little experimental research or RCTs. That said, it's not > uncommon in sociology to conduct waves of surveys or retrospective > interviews to assess childhood experiences. What comes out of these studies > are suggestive correlations or the identification of "risk factors" > associated with certain outcomes. Often the "outcomes" in question are > "bad" things that happen or that people do (which speaks to the second > issue that I'll get to in a few moments). Let me us a study of mine that I > published in 2017 to illustrate. > > I interviewed two "matched" cohorts of males mostly in their early 20s: 1) > 38 inmates who had been convicted of murder, attempted murder or violent > robberies from Ontario; and 2) 66 university students of the same > generation and raised in Ontario as well. The in-depth, retrospective > interviews covered 4 time periods: 1) early childhood (< 6 years old); 2) > transition to adolescence; 3) high school years; and 4) early adulthood. > Long story short, the sample of convicted "violent offenders" were far more > likely to have experienced "toxic childhood environments," defined as > having been exposed to a minimum of 3 of the following 6 conditions: > > *Table 2: Parental Behaviors by Age Five for Inmates and Students* > > Parental Behaviors > > % Inmates > > (n = 38) > > % Students > > (n = 66) > > Daily drinking or alcoholism > > 57.9 > > 45.5 > > Drug use or addiction > > 44.7 > > 6.1 > > Criminal involvement > > 21.1 > > 4.5 > > Family violence/spousal conflict > > 76.3 > > 16.7 > > Child maltreatment > > 57.9 > > 13.7 > > Family instability > > 47.4 > > 12.1 > > > > In total, 30 of 38 inmates experienced at least 3 of the above conditions > through age 5. Only 2 of the university students had experienced similar > "toxic childhood experiences" over the course of their entire childhood > years. The differences in early childhood experience, combined with what > happened at each key life transition (e.g., about half of the inmates with > the toxic environments had joined gangs by the time they were teens), led > the two cohorts down very different pathways that landed them in vastly > different state institutions. As young adults (18-24), the inmates were far > more likely to have committed violent crimes (and most did not complete > high school) and most of the university students had not. That's the > overall, simplified view. > > People then ask me about how I can interview violent offenders and not > react to some of the awful stories that I hear about (and, yes, some of the > violent offences are quite disturbing and predatory in nature). I make the > point that I'm not there trying to "excuse" the behavior or condone what > they have done, but rather I'm just trying to understand their pathways > into violent criminality and compare that with people who have gone down > different pathways. It's obviously a quite inexact science, at least with > the methodology that I used. At the same time, these data (and many other > studies) confirm that there are indeed many "risk factors" and long-lasting > impacts of adverse childhood experiences (e.g., the narratives and examples > the inmates provide of what actually happened to them are in many cases > even more disturbing than their eventual crimes). And that's our conundrum. > We want to explain why people do "bad" things without "excusing" or > condoning the behavior. And that's why there's a parallel struggle in the > criminal justice system in the efforts to balance the "punishments" (or > "retribution") for bad behavior with the "therapeutic" dimensions aimed at > "rehabilitation." And this gets to the core of some philosophical > differences too in terms of the main objective of the criminal justice > system (e.g., retribution vs. rehabilitation). > > I hope this is helpful in terms of the contextual view that I take as a > sociologist. What I did *not* do or have access to would be the > psychosocial profiles of the inmates or students, especially in relation to > the critical junctures and life events. I don't know how many would > register as having mental illnesses, for example, or how many had > conditions such as ADD/ADHD (though some volunteered such info). I mainly > know (imperfectly) with *some* degree of confidence that being raised in > toxic environments drastically increased the odds of doing violent, > horrible stuff happening in young adulthood. The university students had > far less toxic environments by comparison and, when they *did* do "bad" > things as teens or start down different pathways, they had more resources > and social supports to help get them back on track (e.g., more likely to > have parents deeply involved in their lives or a teacher or a coach who > invested heavily or loved them unconditionally). > > An editorial observation. Almost all of the inmates, while not necessarily > "enlightened Buddhas" or people who would likely be in my inner circle of > friends, were actually fairly "normal" in terms of our conversations, the > efforts they were taking to improve their schooling, aspirations for not > ending up back in jail, family concerns, etc. I'm not suggesting that > they're mainly getting all that they need in prison and will come out as > role models - many still have their own problems with addictions, lack of > credentials, psych issues that are beyond my bailiwick, while many also > lack support systems if/when they get out. That said, there were 3 people > (of 38) whom I, as a non-psychologist, experienced as deeply disturbed in > my interactions with them (they were "nice" to me, for what that's worth) > in terms of how they conveyed their stories, the "lack of remorse" or > "empathy", or other signs of various disturbances. Hating to sound > judgmental, in these 3 cases I remember thinking "I'm really glad you're > locked up because you truly come across as deeply disturbed" (but I just > smiled and thanked them for sharing their stories!). > > In closing, I guess I'd say "it's complicated" when we're trying to > understand "adult behavior," due to the interplay of distal (e.g., > childhood experiences) and proximal factors (neighborhoods, racism, > unemployment, credentials, financial struggles, current relationships, > etc.) to explain "why" people behave as they do, to say nothing about how > we then *evaluate* the behavior from a moral standpoint. On the latter > point, what we *do *know as one of the few "iron laws of sociology"? The > greater the social/cultural distance between the observer and the > individual/group observed, the greater the likelihood of our viewing their > behavior or even their very existence in a negative light. Conversely, we > are far more understanding and forgiving of our intimates to the point > where we deny that they could possibly be responsible for "bad" behavior > (e.g., "my son would *never* do that - I didn't raise a monster!). > > Wishing you all peace, health, and understanding, -joe > > Dr. Joseph H. Michalski > > King’s University College at Western University > > 266 Epworth Avenue > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.google.com_maps_search_266-2BEpworth-2BAvenue-3Fentry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=2n7ZCQQ6FY2dVo-8JOBpxo1W9QvQE1LlE6bTpBsZsTI&s=_t6c1SN8uaV-5i3_1vIM_pB8yFVHZs-cpTfCKCRqK2o&e=>, > DL-201 > > London, Ontario, Canada N6A 2M3 > > Tel: (519) 433-3491 > > Email: [log in to unmask] > > ______________________ > > *ei*π + 1 = 0 > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion < > [log in to unmask]> on behalf of Lene Rachel Andersen - > Nordic Bildung / Fremvirke < > [log in to unmask]> > *Sent:* Monday, April 27, 2020 11:09 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> > *Subject:* Re: Lockdown protesters resemble “child soldiers” and “urban > gangs” > > > Hi Catherine, > > Good question, thank you. > > There are two sets of issues, the second with two sub-sets of issues: > > 1. Things that went wrong in childhood and have lasting consequences > 2. Things that went wrong in adulthood > 1. Individual issues > 2. Societal issues > > The 2-2 societal issues must be addressed politically and culturally, not > as mental health / illness. > > / Lene > > On 27-04-2020 17:01, Wilson, Katherine Christine - wilso3kc wrote: > > As I am following this conversation, I find myself a bit confused. > > I am understanding that people are saying that we should not view mindsets > that lead to becoming a child soldier or "social distancing protestor" as > stemming from mental illness, but rather from societal inequities. However, > are not most mental illnesses often the result of some inequity, trauma, > repression, suppression, power dynamic, or developmental challenge due to > lack of proper care, education, and access to basic core needs being met? I > am not understanding how an individual who becomes borderline or depressed > as an adult, after a childhood that involves abuse, rape, poverty, and/or > neglect, is different from someone who protests in the streets as a result > of job insecurity, xenophobic upbringings, and poor education? > > where do we draw the line between mental illness and social inequity? I am > genuinely a bit stuck here... > > On Apr 27, 2020, at 10:11 AM, Zachary Stein <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Thanks Lene. Agreed. > > Child soldiers and gang members are to be understood and helped with > compassion and in ways that explicitly address the social, economic, and > political contexts that placed their lives in such turmoil. Approaching > "these people" as if they are mentally ill is the wrong frame. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 27, 2020, at 9:40 AM, Lene Rachel Andersen - Nordic Bildung / > Fremvirke <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > Hello everybody, > > I think the best way to fight the idiocy is to produce a stronger > narrative. > > What actually makes America great? > > American science, American ingenuity, American medicine, American > collaboration, American expertise, American health care workers, American > hardship, American perseverance, American spirit, American doctors, > American technicians, American nurses, American... > > And have somebody whom the Trump segment admires tout that story as loudly > as possible; addressing anxious people who are under-educated, who have > lost their livelihood in the globalized economy and who react > understandably to a situation that leaves them powerless as a mental health > issue would be an arrogant mistake. > > / Lene > On 27-04-2020 15:14, nysa71 wrote: > > Hi ToK Society, > > An excellent --- though disturbing --- article where Yale psychiatrist, > Brandy Lee, is interviewed: > > *"A Yale psychiatrist has warned that pro-Trump lockdown protesters, who > exhibit similar psychology as 'child soldiers,' could quickly turn into > 'armed troops in the streets' if the president loses his re-election bid.* > *"Dr. Bandy X. Lee, a forensic psychiatrist at the Yale School of > Medicine, said the armed protests were a natural evolution of the loyalty > President Trump demands from his supporters. Many of these protests have > evidently been organized by deep-pocketed groups allied with the > president."* > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.salon.com_2020_04_23_yale-2Dpsychiatrist-2Dbandy-2Dlee-2Dlockdown-2Dprotesters-2Dresemble-2Dchild-2Dsoldiers-2Dand-2Durban-2Dgangs_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=2n7ZCQQ6FY2dVo-8JOBpxo1W9QvQE1LlE6bTpBsZsTI&s=QmadCRYY5DHYS5KLiE75D_jlJnKtApzMlSo8MQOzyqI&e= > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.salon.com_2020_04_23_yale-2Dpsychiatrist-2Dbandy-2Dlee-2Dlockdown-2Dprotesters-2Dresemble-2Dchild-2Dsoldiers-2Dand-2Durban-2Dgangs_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=RS9io8Cke8UTz735yUH9toJIraIP4tGQJFXx1Lrp86c&s=x5PVuK1Z2Yt1MDrPIyGseNkQyKdzVElIEKD2hTPs56g&e=> > > The mentality of these people should be of deep concern to mental health > professionals, and I hope it is of top priority among the mental health > community right now. > > ~ Jason Bessey > > > > > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: > mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the > following link: > http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > -- Cole Butler TPAC Project Coordinator University of Maryland UMD ADHD Lab <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.umdadhd.org_cole&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=2n7ZCQQ6FY2dVo-8JOBpxo1W9QvQE1LlE6bTpBsZsTI&s=u_qdCrx3atIPjj0Xq9FxZ3hSn8MTsg5Qj9P4bJhvnd8&e=> 2103W, Cole Field House | College Park, MD 20742 tel 301.405.6163 ############################ To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1