"Will each moment matter if we never run out?" A horrific potential beautifully stated, Lonny. I'd love a link to your thesis. Let's ponder infinity: How many hearts will we break in our search for the perfect mate? How many more ways will we be able to disappoint our children? (smiles)? How much creation - and destruction will we endeavor simply out of sheer boredom? It's worth contemplating how an infinite person would see cultures merge in an ever-immediate self-gratifying Tik-Tok world wherein 30 seconds seems a lifetime (swipe up). In the broader picture, the promises of allopathy to extend our lifespans have been sold via the "fear of death" campaign. I've never feared death for myself; as a four-year-old, I witnessed my own mother beg for it to come due to the pain of breast cancer. My father had hidden her pain pills out of fear she might overdose. She was left a whole day without relief. Her peace came Feb 14, 1971, Valentine's Day. I was not as sad that day as I could have been. Our life expectancy is not increasing; it is decreasing. Millenials are the first generation since 1915-1918 to experience a net drop in their life expectancy. Over 54% of our children have chronic illnesses that we are told require lifelong exposure to pharmaceuticals. Autoimmunity against all types of tissues can lead to those chronic illnesses we know best - and those so diffuse we can barely name them. Oppenheimer famously recalled his thought on witnessing the first atomic explosion, "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds," citing a phrase from Bhagavad Gita. It has been debated for decades whether the inventors of technology are responsible for the evils of their application. "Gunpowder has good and bad uses" is the normative declarative palliation. We have forestalled the question of how to evolve ethics ahead of technology. Oppenheimer's regret has been a philosopher's bailiwick for generations, mused over in ethics classes and perhaps debated too rarely over both blueprints and beer. Otherwise we might not be releasing millions of genetically modified male mosquitoes in Florida that carry the PiggyBac transposon. Nothing to fear there, there is a molecular "fail safe" in these mosquitoes that keep the males sterile, or so we were told. The release of these mosquitoes in the US was approved AFTER it was discovered that -- oops- Oxitec's failsafe failed in Brazil. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__gizmodo.com_genetically-2Dmodified-2Dmosquitoes-2Dare-2Dbreeding-2Din-2Dbrazil-2D1838146152&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ICxSiTRnTjeY-uo9LflEFInSTC2xQHzqNIafed1YyEA&s=5a7hWrLC0S2gs3VlhLaZrw11ps4lNAtkQiIt-OfVkIQ&e= Perhaps too few have imagined that anyone could or would invent another technology that had the potential to undue five million years of human evolution, or 3.4 billion years of organic evolution on the planet. Flying hyperdermics moving transposons - and potentially genetic material - around warm-blooded mammals. Fodder for my Sci-Fi book, "PiggyBac", if I ever can find them time. Rest assured, our hubris and ignorance of it will be our undoing, just as it has in every failed civilization; it's always the unintended consequences of so-called "advances" as we go around poking at the edge of known, and trying to do the undoable. Perhaps this is why the billions of alien civilizations that could contact us have not: they have seen civilizations like ours come, and go, millions of times over. Perhaps they can tell which civilization they find use Prometheus' fire to forge ahead wisely, and those who arrogantly and brazenly brandish it upon everything they see. There are many immediate biothreat categories that could provide our doomsday: laboratory technicians being scratched by animals while drawing blood from a wild-caught animal as we literally go searching for things that can kill us; aluminum, in toxic doses, injected without regulatory limits as we attempt to corral to bacteria and viruses that cause what used to be common childhood illnesses; our penchant for profitable solutions that address symptoms rather than those that address root causes of illness. I have no particular odds on these, and there are more. The point is: they do not afford me optimism that we will ever have to fear running out of moments. A good human life is followed best by a good, well-deserved rest. I'm not, for the record, in any hurry. I'm still practising the "good human life" part. I, too, share precious moments with those whom I love. These days, though, it is becoming increasingly a battle to engage a future in which moments can be seen as precious. Who knows, perhaps Elon Musks' machinery will provide us a path to ultimate and persistent bliss. I would rather have a reason to live. JLW On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 2:51 PM Lonny Meinecke <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > This is great Brent: > > “The main issue is simply immortality. Obviously the richest will be the > first ones able to afford it. But surely, a few decades after that, most > everyone will be able to afford it. But what happens till most everyone > can afford it?” > > > > After my wife of 32 years passed away, I began thinking about this a lot. > The song by Queen “Who Wants to Live Forever” took center stage and > occupied my thoughts. Why would I want to live forever without her? Surely > some will die and even our best science will be unable to restore them. > What then? > > > > We might extend what you said so well… > > > > What happens **when** most everyone can afford it? > > > > Imagine, as I have, eternity without your beloved object (to use Freud’s > phrase). Is that paradise? > > And as I conjectured in the last chapter of my dissertation based on the > data I received from the USRDS on everybody’s need for a replacement kidney > versus the reality if that should come to pass… > > Will each moment matter if we never run out? > > > > It is because we can’t be together forever, that each second now is so > precious to me > > Thanks for this topic, all! > > Lonny > > > > > > Dr. Lonny Douglas Meinecke (King University) > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lmeinecke.com_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ICxSiTRnTjeY-uo9LflEFInSTC2xQHzqNIafed1YyEA&s=NOSineTs8_93RBGdjkwYPXGo3Tez_V9KVOAOq2-OSQw&e= > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lmeinecke.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=Bvj5CZqwyZZ5yP2tpSKicb4haodzGETgnfuVAmgZGj0&s=03hSR76j_YxSUDCJU3vhl7ulX-eXrhxsRgXPRPz8qjI&e=> > > *“Comparison is the thief of joy” – Theodore Roosevelt* > > *“Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live > forever” - Mahatma Gandhi* > > *"God guard me from those thoughts men think In the mind alone" - William > Butler Yeats (A Prayer For Old Age) * > > > > *From:* tree of knowledge system discussion < > [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *Brent Allsop > *Sent:* Sunday, August 30, 2020 12:26 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: NeuraLink > > > > > > The main issue is simply immortality. Obviously the richest will be the > first ones able to afford it. But surely, a few decades after that, most > everyone will be able to afford it. But what happens till most everyone > can afford it? > > > > People are worried about the cost of health care now. None of what people > are talking about now, trying to resolve the cost of health care, has > anything to do with how much it's going to cost in 10 and 20 years. > During the transition, not everyone is going to be able to afford it, > simple as that. Sure, it's going to be WAY expensive, but life is worth > it. Again, you ain't seen nothing yet. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 12:04 PM James Lyons-Weiler < > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Let us account for the potential abuses and ethical challenges... Should > we hack the brain with portable external plugins that increase net > intelligence? If we do, the rich will benefit by being able to afford the > most capacity and upgrades. Will there one day be external memory, also > with the cultural divide on capacity and access? Will there be an > externalization of perception of "self"? Can such technology be hijacked > for illicit use, to change political views, or force specific consumer > decisions or lifestyle preferences? > > > > Cool, yes. Grist for the mill of dystopian sci fi concepts? By the dozen. > > > > IMHO, there are major questions that must be answered before human trials. > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2020, 1:55 PM Brent Allsop <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Yea, I think all that stuff is great. They mentioned others that have > been doing similar interfaces, like the “Utah Array > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Microelectrode-5Farray&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=QkudZVqEaqUW44qoicXAix6aXwPgnuGc2J4nQE3WYGQ&s=ZAJL9GQpU5JabI4FRRWBFo_9uyZRGG_6dSAVsFvg3Sk&e=>” > helping blind people see and so on. And of course, as they always say: > “You aint seen nothing yet.” And as he said: “The future is going to be > ‘weird’. We think our lives are very different from people that live a few > hundred years ago, before automobiles and so on. But because of > accelerating work like Neuralink, the difference between our lives, and the > lives of people 100 years ago, will be indistinguishable from our lives and > people living 50 and 100 years in the future. (i.e. no death, uploading, > avatars, amplified intelligence/memory…, traveling to space without needing > space suits...) > > > > But what continues to blow me away is how much neural progress like this > continues while everyone is doing all this in only the abstract domain. > People only use one word for all things red. (i.e. qualia blind.) Qualia > are intrinsic qualities of something in the brain, so if you want to > objectively observe/discover intrinsic qualities, you need to use multiple > words, red (something that reflects or emits red light) and redness (the > intrinsic quality of knowledge of red things.); How are you going to be > able to get someone to see a spot of redness, vs greenness, let alone know > if someone’s redness is like someone alse’s greenness. > > > > It just seems so absurd to me that not only can nobody tell us the > intrinsic colorness qualities of anything in this world, even the brilliant > people like Elon Musk, and the world's most brilliant neural researchers > and physicists, don’t realize we don’t know this. All peer reviewed work, > today, is completely qualia blind, and basically just uses one word for all > things red. > > > > To better understand qualia blindness, see if you can pass the ‘Are you > qualia blind > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__qualia.insite21.com_survey_1584554976&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=QkudZVqEaqUW44qoicXAix6aXwPgnuGc2J4nQE3WYGQ&s=NsK1h35Y3xaaQRdDonjBss560RE41y5bi0B0CA8tPxc&e=>’ > test. > > And if you agree with the importance of this, please help communicate this > to the masses by signing or joining the "Representational Qualia Theory > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__canonizer.com_topic_88-2DTheories-2Dof-2DConsciousness_1-23statement&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=QkudZVqEaqUW44qoicXAix6aXwPgnuGc2J4nQE3WYGQ&s=Dw9XgSCdDpuvYFJZupfZNiYugryKKtysIaqHiqAnXxA&e=>" > camp, or one of it's supporting sub camps which most closely aligns with > whatever you predict qualia will turn out to be. > > > > On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 2:47 PM Cole Butler <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Wondering your thoughts on Elon Musk’s NeuraLink device. Seems super cool > to me! He talked about a lot of the long-term theoretical applications on > his last appearance on Joe Rohan’s podcast, but this video is a great > highlight of a first iteration. > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__youtu.be_CLUWDLKAF1M&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ICxSiTRnTjeY-uo9LflEFInSTC2xQHzqNIafed1YyEA&s=ABwWEgFMPiNg0ISszJjXNrp7LIcwEJABZzosLOzxwdo&e= > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__youtu.be_CLUWDLKAF1M&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=qYptc0lksRL2t4l1zYiVFqO5qB2sEoPhFIZCDeOyNgY&s=yyUPaWjOqqRM_YweOGjq0tkmGoClJlTYlFIo_SGjpzM&e=> > > > > Best, > > > > Cole > > -- > > Cole Butler > > Research Coordinator > > Project Coordinator: Treating Parents with ADHD and their Children (TPAC > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__umdadhd.org_ongoing-2Dprojects-2Dand-2Dfunding&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=qYptc0lksRL2t4l1zYiVFqO5qB2sEoPhFIZCDeOyNgY&s=tlNaHbzN9ikS7KMidHY5uKKm0d4StTLjMZZoaRUV6aI&e=> > ) > > SUCCEEDS > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__umdadhd.org_succeeds&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=qYptc0lksRL2t4l1zYiVFqO5qB2sEoPhFIZCDeOyNgY&s=8HT-PlFNQY0-9rtIz_YIUhBL59RgOlt_rO4f9SBxfvU&e=> > Coach > > University of Maryland > > UMD ADHD Lab > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.umdadhd.org_cole&d=DwMFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=qYptc0lksRL2t4l1zYiVFqO5qB2sEoPhFIZCDeOyNgY&s=kFUj4sMtMI1nCId_Of2o4-DRmEteqZu-LcN1CKkkRFk&e=> > > 2103W, Cole Field House | College Park, MD 20742 > > tel 301.405.6163 > > 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http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1 > -- --- james lyons-weiler, phd Author, CEO, President, Scientist Editor-in-Chief, Science, Public Health Policy, and the Law <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.publichealthpolicyjournal.com_&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ICxSiTRnTjeY-uo9LflEFInSTC2xQHzqNIafed1YyEA&s=bF5zOZHSFFqHbYIPh0mYYvcjV1bh2dgOVxYM8_Y9HJU&e= > Guest Contributor, Children's Health Defense <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__childrenshealthdefense.org&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ICxSiTRnTjeY-uo9LflEFInSTC2xQHzqNIafed1YyEA&s=RVMRi-F-tsA_gpST0asMZXF1PlPuo0Ojx_7CaGHSlRM&e= > The Environmental and Genetic Causes of Autism <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__amzn.to_1KNSxPp&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ICxSiTRnTjeY-uo9LflEFInSTC2xQHzqNIafed1YyEA&s=fLWzyisb2GZ41IMd7LTScHrSxU2097-K-_uNh4gWnG0&e= > (Skyhorse Publishing) Cures vs. Profits: Successes in Translational Research <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.amazon.com_gp_product_9814730149_ref-3Das-5Fli-5Fqf-5Fsp-5Fasin-5Fil-5Ftl-3Fie-3DUTF8-26camp-3D1789-26creative-3D9325-26creativeASIN-3D9814730149-26linkCode-3Das2-26tag-3Dlivgrelivwel-2D20&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ICxSiTRnTjeY-uo9LflEFInSTC2xQHzqNIafed1YyEA&s=wTatCLYBxl_2goopotSWGrHCxWb_PCxJNB1mV8Af504&e= > (World Scientific, 2016) Ebola: An Evolving Story <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__amzn.to_1TGYY9r&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ICxSiTRnTjeY-uo9LflEFInSTC2xQHzqNIafed1YyEA&s=h-569qpluDTYv4S-WNUTxh0rvxvdO5FEp1aZ6x6iWwY&e= > (World Scientific, 2015) cell 412-728-8743 email [log in to unmask] www.*linkedin*.com/in/*jameslyonsweiler* <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_jameslyonsweiler&d=DwIFaQ&c=eLbWYnpnzycBCgmb7vCI4uqNEB9RSjOdn_5nBEmmeq0&r=HPo1IXYDhKClogP-UOpybo6Cfxxz-jIYBgjO2gOz4-A&m=ICxSiTRnTjeY-uo9LflEFInSTC2xQHzqNIafed1YyEA&s=PsncuOdrk8Jx2uw4Aa2gUawo-jCdcEfxVycKDkcDJoM&e= > ############################ To unsubscribe from the TOK-SOCIETY-L list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://listserv.jmu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=TOK-SOCIETY-L&A=1